Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-13-2012, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mullerb

Hello, I come a bit late on that thread, but I wrote a mini website (4 webpages) on the issue. My conclusions:
a) The original gJohn gospel was written with full knowledge of gMark, but not of other gospels. It was ending then at 20:10.
b) After gLuke got known, many additions were made, plus some reshuffling. The ending was extended to include 20:23.
c) After Acts was known, a few insertions were made. The ending was further extended to 20:31.

For anyone interested, please contact me because I am not authorized to provide the link.
Bernard

You've made 5 posts, so you can now post links.

This appears to be your website:

http://historical-jesus.info/

Bernard Muller · 02-13-2012, 10:41 AM

But there is a very long Last Supper in gJohn (13:2-17:26). Maybe you are thinking about the absence of the eucharist in it. However the eucharist is addressed in length in gJohn 6:25-59.
I can post the link now:
http://historical-jesus.info/jnintro.html

Duvduv · 02-13-2012, 11:40 AM

However, this is NOT the same scenario as in the synoptics, and I am wondering why this is the case if the author of GJohn had access to 3 documents that described something of a Last Supper.
Why do all four gospels refer to the feeding of the 5000 and not to the Last Supper story as in the synoptics?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mullerb

But there is a very long Last Supper in gJohn (13:2-17:26). Maybe you are thinking about the absence of the eucharist in it. However the eucharist is addressed in length in gJohn 6:25-59.
I can post the link now:
http://historical-jesus.info/jnintro.html

Bernard Muller · 02-13-2012, 12:27 PM

First, "John" had only gMark when writing his Last Supper, not the 3 Synoptics.
So the last supper in gJohn is different as in gMark! Every gospel authors were creative. "John" is no different, although worse than "Luke" and "Matthew" (relative to incorporating gMark material in their gospel). But there is something similar in both last suppers: Jesus declares Judas will betray him by way of bread being dipped and eaten by Judas.
Bernard

Duvduv · 02-13-2012, 12:44 PM

Thank you for that suggestion, but I don't see why texts that have the same themes and different details that are of a religious nature are simply creative writing, especially in the context of this religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mullerb

First, "John" had only gMark when writing his Last Supper, not the 3 Synoptics.
So the last supper in gJohn is different as in gMark! Every gospel authors were creative. "John" is no different, although worse than "Luke" and "Matthew" (relative to incorporating gMark material in their gospel). But there is something similar in both last suppers: Jesus declares Judas will betray him by way of bread being dipped and eaten by Judas.
Bernard

Bernard Muller · 02-13-2012, 01:33 PM

As far as the betrayal of Judas is concerned, and the way it is announced at the last supper, gJohn is much closer of gMark than gLuke or even gMatthew.
In gMark 14:18-21, there is dipping of bread as in gJohn 13:26.
In gLuke 22:21-22, there is none of that
In gMatthew 26:21-23, there is dipping (of hand) but no bread involved.

Duvduv · 02-13-2012, 02:07 PM

That still doesn't address the point I was making.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mullerb

As far as the betrayal of Judas is concerned, and the way it is announced at the last supper, gJohn is much closer of gMark than gLuke or even gMatthew.
In gMark 14:18-21, there is dipping of bread as in gJohn 13:26.
In gLuke 22:21-22, there is none of that
In gMatthew 26:21-23, there is dipping (of hand) but no bread involved.

Bernard Muller · 02-13-2012, 03:02 PM

I just wanted to show that "John", on a point of detail in the Last Supper, was closer to gMark than the other ones, which certainly goes against "John" not knowing the Last Supper rendition in gMark. I do not think that thread is about "texts that have the same themes and different details that are of a religious nature are simply creative writing, especially in the context of this religion."

Duvduv · 02-13-2012, 03:08 PM

Sorry. No problem. I just opened the thread to try to get at some ideas about the intentions and agendas. However, most folks think it was merely spontaneous creativity or plagiarism. I don't feel strongly about these suggestions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mullerb

I just wanted to show that "John", on a point of detail in the Last Supper, was closer to gMark than the other ones, which certainly goes against "John" not knowing the Last Supper rendition in gMark. I do not think that thread is about "texts that have the same themes and different details that are of a religious nature are simply creative writing, especially in the context of this religion."

Toto · 02-13-2012, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

... I don't see why texts that have the same themes and different details that are of a religious nature are simply creative writing, especially in the context of this religion.

Is this just a confession of your lack of understanding? Is there some particular reason why you reject the idea that creative imagination is enough to explain variations in the gospel stories?

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02-13-2012, 10:41 AM	#32
Bernard Muller Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 927	But there is a very long Last Supper in gJohn (13:2-17:26). Maybe you are thinking about the absence of the eucharist in it. However the eucharist is addressed in length in gJohn 6:25-59. I can post the link now: http://historical-jesus.info/jnintro.html

02-13-2012, 12:27 PM	#34
Bernard Muller Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 927	First, "John" had only gMark when writing his Last Supper, not the 3 Synoptics. So the last supper in gJohn is different as in gMark! Every gospel authors were creative. "John" is no different, although worse than "Luke" and "Matthew" (relative to incorporating gMark material in their gospel). But there is something similar in both last suppers: Jesus declares Judas will betray him by way of bread being dipped and eaten by Judas. Bernard

02-13-2012, 01:33 PM	#36
Bernard Muller Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 927	As far as the betrayal of Judas is concerned, and the way it is announced at the last supper, gJohn is much closer of gMark than gLuke or even gMatthew. In gMark 14:18-21, there is dipping of bread as in gJohn 13:26. In gLuke 22:21-22, there is none of that In gMatthew 26:21-23, there is dipping (of hand) but no bread involved.

02-13-2012, 03:02 PM	#38
Bernard Muller Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 927	I just wanted to show that "John", on a point of detail in the Last Supper, was closer to gMark than the other ones, which certainly goes against "John" not knowing the Last Supper rendition in gMark. I do not think that thread is about "texts that have the same themes and different details that are of a religious nature are simply creative writing, especially in the context of this religion."

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