GenesisNemesis

In response to "who are we to judge God", a question arises...

Who is God to judge us, if we have Free Will? Why are we not to question God's will?

rhutchin

All that God will judge about you is your qualification to enter heaven. If God finds that you have sinned, then He will deny you entry into heaven. Since God inhabits heaven and established it for those He chooses to permit in, He is within His rights to determine who can enter.

On what basis do you think you could question God on this point?

EternallyI

If God denies entry to sinners, then none of us stand a chance.

EternallyI

This is non-sensical from the standpoint of one who believes in God. I know that you've read Job.

figuer

When evaluating a god we must follow the following premises:

1. He exists.
2. Our morality comes from him

Since the behaviour of the Biblical god violates our inner sense of justice and fairness, he is immoral, and therefore unworthy of judging us.

steamer

Well, I have no more reason to assume that the bible authors knew anything about an actual god any more than EternallyI or rhutchin knows an actual god. That is to say, neither of them know anything about any actual gods either.

Supposing an actual god did exist, I don't see any reason to assume it is good. It may be evil and only by our own standards could we recognize the difference. This is why Christians always claim god has some unknown reason for the apparently evil things the biblical authors had him do. If we give Hitler an unknown reason for the things he did, we could call him good too.

We should question any beings will if we are to accept it as good that he be our judge.

GenesisNemesis

But the confusing part is I, a mere human with my petty Free Will, interfered with God's Ultimate, Loving Plan. He wants everyone to be in Heaven, with Him, right? So why give us the choice in the first place if we're just going to screw up His Plan? Why give us the choice to disobey if all He wants is our love, because He was lonely for eternity?

steamer

That's the strength of the Universalist position. Borg-like, thou wilt be assimilated. The weakness of course is that even the universalist god did not need a plan. He could have just created everyone as they would be the moment they entered heaven.

EternallyI

Who cares what His reasons are? Why would you not choose to obey Him? Because you despise doing good? I doubt it. But why? Because you wouldn't be able to keep the glory of your good deeds for yourself? Because you would be compelled to honor God for His mercy and love He poured out on you to give you the desire to do good? Do you actually think that you decided to be you? Have you ever heard a drunk say: "I love myself and the fact that I have destroyed my whole life"? Would you be so evil as to tell such a pitiful one: "If you would just do something different like me, you would be fine"? Would you not have compassion on such a one, and walk with him in his struggles and encourage him? Of course we don't know why things are the way they are. But we believe that God chose them to be so. Do we respond with: "How could God be so wicked to do such unjust things"? Of course not. Instead we respond with: "Lord, I do not understand why things are the way they are. But I trust that you are in control over all things and that I am responsible not for figuring out what it all means, but for doing that which I ought to do. You are the judge. Indeed your justice is perfect; not only towards those that follow your ways but also towards those that reject them and You."

steamer

Because it is important. You wouldn't want to worship a god that would order you to kill babies would you? Especially if that god were just a thing you only ever imagined.

Because he might want you to do evil.

Because many of the biblical stories describe an evil god.

Hey if I do a good deed it is me and no one else that did it. If there is glory to be had it is rightfully mine. Not yours, and not god's.

What mercy? Not torturing me? I am even more merciful to you as I haven't even thought of torturing you.

I don't, my brain has a genetic disposition to be wired a certain way but this is modifiable by experience. Amazingly, you'd be as atheistic as I if you had my wiring and my experiences.

As opposed to what?

I have, I doubt I'll do it again but yes I have. Have you?

You believe that the god you only imagine chose actual things to be as they are?

Like create hell? I don't accuse any actual gods of doing anything at all. As far as any of us knows, no actual god even exists.

That's very nice. Look how unnecessary a god is for doing the things we think we ought to do.

Except for the fact that this god is a thing you have always only ever imagined.