Freethought & Rationalism Archive

adherent01 · 12-01-2006, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capella

Not ONE of the first six Presidents of the United States was a Christain. They were Deists. George Washington:"Being no bigot, I am disposed to humor Christian ministers and the church. I will be happy to have atheists, Jews, Christians or Mohammedans." In 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said in a sermon: "Washington is no more than a Unitarian, if anything."

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust"

Sometimes you can have Christian ethics (to a degree) without being a Christian. Think of it this way, do you personally strive to do good in your life, do you want good things for the betterment of humanity? Do you care about the horrible things that are and have happened in the world. Therein lies the underlined meaning of what I meant. As for Washington, he was a Christian, based on the research that I have done, though you might do the same research and find the answers to be different. It's all what you read into things, for example one person might find a meaning of a song to be completely different, than another person. That doesn't change what the original meaning of the song, but it does deviate from it. But anyway that is not what I meant by "the founders of our nation" I was referring to the Puritans were the original people to colonize the first few states (other than Indians).

adherent01 · 12-01-2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selsaral

According to the bible, God happily punishes people for the crimes of their ancestors. God also kills all the firstborn children of Egypt because he was angry at the leader of Egypt. These are two of many, many similar stories in the bible that I am sure you have read. I cannot possibly fathom how you could think these two actions wouldn't be illegal in modern-day America.

No it wasn't. It was modelled after ancient Greek and Roman political systems. Our founding document states essentially 'together, we will agree on the best method to live together'. Nowhere does it mention God.

Our society goes back to the pagan Romans and Greeks.

And putting people to death for aldutery, talking back to elders, or eating the wrong kind of food would clearly be immoral and illegal in modern-day America. We aren't barbarians anymore, but this God who was written down thousands of years ago surely is.

Okay just wondering, where did you get your information about all this from, any sources? Other than that I really can't stress this enough. Examine the Bible with an open mind, go into it, reading it, read valid responses about the Bible, Christian people that have written books about what it has to say, commentaries. This doesn't mean that you have to believe what they are writing, it just means that you are doing research of your own. Even if it is just to build up your arguments about Christianity. Personally I have listened to everything and anything that anyone has to say on here, that doesn't mean that I have to accept what you say, just listen with an open ear. As I've said before I can, should only expect the same from you.

BadBadBad · 12-01-2006, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupofu

There is no contradiction in a God who allows suffering of the guilty in order to save those who deserve heaven.

There's no contradiction in a loving omnipotent God that allows suffering? Is that what you meant? Suffering of the guilty to save those who deserve heaven? You've got it all wrong pal. The Bible, ie God as you claim, says that there are no innocent, not one. There are none that deserve Heaven. We are all guilty. We are all worthy of utter destruction and eternal damnation.

So when you say that God is justified in killing the guilty, but yet he arbitrarily has mercy on those just as guilty, that's not justice.

BadBadBad · 12-01-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adherent01

Okay just wondering, where did you get your information about all this from, any sources? Other than that I really can't stress this enough. Examine the Bible with an open mind, go into it, reading it, read valid responses about the Bible, Christian people that have written books about what it has to say, commentaries. This doesn't mean that you have to believe what they are writing, it just means that you are doing research of your own. Even if it is just to build up your arguments about Christianity. Personally I have listened to everything and anything that anyone has to say on here, that doesn't mean that I have to accept what you say, just listen with an open ear. As I've said before I can, should only expect the same from you.

Do you have any idea how many of the people you're talking to have become atheists from what they thought was a rock solid faith by doing exactly what you're suggesting? I suggest to you that if you take your own advice, your faith is just as much at risk.

BadBadBad · 12-01-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adherent01

Sometimes you can have Christian ethics (to a degree) without being a Christian.

That's interesting. Would you attribute this to God's will that we as humans have some innate tendency to comply with His ethics?

BadBadBad · 12-01-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELECTROGOD

Soooo much material to work with.

In other words, if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with one big load of bullshit after another?

hasselhoff · 12-01-2006, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adherent01

Okay just wondering, where did you get your information about all this from, any sources?

Are you serious? Let's see:

God punishes people for the crimes of their ancestors: Exodus 20:5, to name just one of the many times God says or does this.

God also kills all the firstborn children of Egypt...: You have read the book of Exodus, right?

Our founding document states essentially 'together, we will agree on the best method to live together'. Nowhere does it mention God:

The source is our founding document, the constitution of the United States. It doesn't mention God.

Quote:

Other than that I really can't stress this enough. Examine the Bible with an open mind, go into it, reading it, read valid responses about the Bible, Christian people that have written books about what it has to say, commentaries. This doesn't mean that you have to believe what they are writing, it just means that you are doing research of your own. Even if it is just to build up your arguments about Christianity. Personally I have listened to everything and anything that anyone has to say on here, that doesn't mean that I have to accept what you say, just listen with an open ear. As I've said before I can, should only expect the same from you.

Boy are you arrogant. You're going to run into many people here whose knowledge of the bible dwarfs most Christians. I am not one of these people, incidentally. The bible tops my list of things that are so boring my brain tries to self-destruct.

Chidori · 12-01-2006, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adherent01

Sometimes you can have Christian ethics (to a degree) without being a Christian. Think of it this way, do you personally strive to do good in your life, do you want good things for the betterment of humanity? Do you care about the horrible things that are and have happened in the world.

Ancient peoples in many cultures held these values long before the advent of Christianity.

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