Bernard Muller

Roger wrote:
Is there any reason to suppose Smyrneans late or forged?

I wrote a long page to show all Ignatian letters are forgeries.

http://www.concentric.net/~Mullerb/ignatius.shtml

Best regards, Bernard

Bernard Muller

Iasion wrote:
Hmm .. I find it hard to agree a century could be seen as a "little time", even allowing for the problem of the end times

I got that from the Ignatian epistles (written circa. 110 for almost everybody, and circa. 135 by me).

'to the Ephesians': "These are the last times" (11:1)
'to the Magnesians': "[Jesus] appeared at the end of time" (6:1)

The author(s) did not think much of the 70-105 years elapsed between the crucifixion and the time of writing of the letter.

Best regards, Bernard

Roger Pearse

I find that I have a photocopy of much of J.Rendell Harris, "The Apology of Aristides on behalf of the Christians from a Syriac Ms. preserved on Mount Sinai," Texts and Studies 1, Cambridge (1891).

This includes the Latin translation of the Armenian fragment published by the Mechitarists; but something more useful yet:

--start--
We have now reprinted all that is known of the Armenian translation of the Apology ; it is out of our limit and beyond our measure to think of reprinting the actual Armenian text. For the purpose of comparison we add, however, another copy of the same Armenian fragment, taken from a MS. at Edschmiazin, and translated into English by Mr F. C. Conybeare, of Oxford, for whose kindly aid we are very grateful. According to the information which he has supplied, the MS. at Edschmiazin was written on paper, and is much worn by age. The date was certainly not later than the eleventh century.

The fragment from the Apology which it contains was followed by the fragment from the Homily on the Penitent Thief. Here and there the text was illegible, and in these cases the missing words have been supplied from the Venice text, as reprinted by Pitra. The two texts in question are moreover in very close agreement, except for the occasional addition of a word or two by the Edschmiazin MS. The rendering is designedly a literal one.

The Armenian Fragment (from the Edschmiazin MS.).

TO THE AUTOCRATIC CAESAR ADRIANOS FROM ARISTIDES, ATHENIAN PHILOSOPHER.

I, O Ruler, who was by the providence of God created and fashioned man in the world, and who have beheld the heaven and the earth and the sea, the sun and the moon and the stars and all creatures, wondered and was amazed at the eternal order thereof. I also by reflection learned that the world and all that is therein is by necessity and force guided and moved and of the whole God is controuler and orderer : for that which controuls is more powerful than that which is controuled and moved. To enquire about Him who is guardian and controuls all things seems to me to quite exceed the comprehension and to be most difficult, and to speak accurately concerning Him is beyond compass of thought and of speech, and bringeth no advantage ; for His nature is infinite and unsearchable, and imperceptible, and inaccessible to all creatures. We can only know that He who governs by His providence all created things, He is Lord and God and creator of all, who ordered all things visible in His beneficence, and graciously bestowed them on the race of man. Now it is meet that we serve and glorify Him alone as God, and love one another as ourselves. But this much alone can we know concerning God, that He was not generated from any source, and did not Himself make Himself, and is not contained by aught, but Himself contains all. αὐτογενὲς εἶδος and wisdom immortal, without beginning or end, not passing away and undying, He is complete and wanteth nothing, while He fulfilleth all wants. In Himself He wanteth nought, but gives to and fulfils the needs of all. In Himself He is without beginning, for He is beginning of everything whatever, and is perfect. In Himself He is nameless, for whatever is named is fashioned out of something else and created. Colour and form of Him there is not, for that falls under measure and limit, unto whatsoever colour and form belong. Male and female in that nature there is not, for that is subject to particular passions, in whatsoever that distinction exists. Within the heavens He is not contained, for He is beyond the heavens ; neither are the heavens greater than He, for the heavens and all creation are contained in Him. Counter to Him and opposed there is no one : if any one be found counter to Him, it appears that that one becometh associate with Him. He is unmoved and unmeasured and ineffable ; for there is no place whence or with which He could move ; and He is not, by being measured, contained or environed on any side, for it is Himself that filleth all, and He transcends all things visible and invisible. Wrath and anger there is not in Him, for there is not in Him blindness, but He is wholly and entirely rational, and on that account He established creation with divers wonders and entire beneficence. Need hath He none of victims and oblations and sacrifices, and of all that is in the visible creation He wanteth nought. For He fulfilleth the wants of all and completeth them, and being in need of nothing He is glorified unto all time.

Now by the grace of God it was given me to speak wisely concerning Him. So far as I have received the faculty I will speak, yet not according to the measure of the inscrutability of His greatness shall I be able to do so, but by faith alone do I glorify and adore Him.

Let us next come to the race of man, and see who are capable of receiving the truth of these sayings, and who are gone astray. It is manifest, O Ruler, for there are four tribes of the human race. There are barbarians, and some are Greeks and others Hebrews, and there are who are Christians. But the heathens and barbarians count their descent from Baal, and from Cronos, and from Hera, and from many others of their gods. But the Greeks say Zeus (who is Dios) is their founder, and reckon their descent from Helenos and Xuthos, and one after another from Hellas, Inachos and Phoroneus, and also finally from Danaus the Egyptian, and from Cadmus the Sidonian, and Dionysius the Theban.

But the Jews reckon their race from Abraham, and Abraham's son they say was Isaac, and from Isaac Jacob, and from Jacob the twelve who migrated from Assyria into Egypt and were there named the tribes of the Hebrews by their lawgiver, and having come into the land of recompence, were named...... the tribes of the Jews.

But the Christians reckon their race from the Lord Jesus Christ. He is Himself Son of God on high, who was manifested of the Holy Spirit, came down from heaven, and being born of a Hebrew virgin took on His flesh from the virgin, and was manifested in the nature of humanity the Son of God : who sought to win the entire world to His eternal goodness by His life-giving preaching. He it is who was according to the flesh born of the race of the Hebrews, by the God-bearing virgin Miriam. He chose the twelve disciples, and He by his illuminating truth, dispensing it taught, all the world, and was nailed on the cross by the Jews. Who rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and sent forth His disciples into the whole world, and taught all with divinely miraculous and profoundly wise wonders. Their preaching until this day blossoms and bears fruit, and summons all the world to receive the light.

These are the four tribes, whom we set before thee, O Ruler, Barbarians, Greeks, Jews and Christians. But to the Deity is appointed the spiritual, and to angels the fiery, and to devils the watery, and to the race of men the earth.
* * * * * * * *
--end--

Roger Pearse

I see that the bits of Aristides are all over the web. Because it is online already, I never did anything with my copy of the Syriac in English; however, I wonder whether people feel it would be useful to have the version of Aristides all gathered together and included in the Additional Fathers collection (tertullian.org/fathers, mirrored at CCEL)? I don't have the Greek translation, but could surely acquire it.

I looked at what Harris and Robinson say:

About the gospel: They agree that a written text is referred to; but are circumspect beyond that.

Armenian: they think it's mainly a paraphrase, but not from the Syriac (or, at least, not the Syriac as we have it).

Greek of Barlaam: The Syriac is about 50% longer. However, although Syriac translators are generally pretty faithful, Robinson ventures that, by and large, the Syriac is an expansion of the Greek, except where the author of Barlaam had to trim the text slightly to make it work. But he reserves judgement rather, so plainly it's not a simple issue.

All the best,

Roger Pearse