Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pachomius2000 · 09-18-2004, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojuice5001, thread post #3

It's just something I enjoy doing. And I'm used to being criticized.

Yes. We all like talking about the things we think about.

I myself am a devotee of Aesop's Fables. But I can't think of any that shed light on the motivation for talking to other people. There seem to be quite a few fables whose point is that "talk is cheap." Especially, for instance, "The Boasting Traveller."

Well, consider this. If no one believes me, then effectively I haven't given away my pearl of great price at all. If only a few people believe me, and they benefit as a result of this, I'd say they have earned it.

Sir, I believe I see in you a true Israelite in whom there is no guile.

You say, "Yes. We all like talking about the things we think about."

Is that what we call in auto mechanics the feedback mechanism, as when the engine temperature gets too hot, it feeds that fact to the switching device of the cooling fan which turns on; and then when the engine gets to the right operating temperature, there is a feedback of this state to the switching device, and this device turns off the fan.

So, communication is one way of finding out how we are doing with our thoughts and our way of thinking; and first, just like everything we can do and we do, it's enjoyable, better than not doing it (having eye and seeing is much better than not seeing with our eyes); and second, we derive a affirmation of ourselves that we are possessed of thoughts and possessed of the capacity of thinking. I consider this latter the feedback mechanism, to get to know that we are still around and operating.

If people don't communicate with others outside of themselves they might get confused whether they do really exist in the real world of being able to interact with other people.

Now, with religion, communicating about it with other people is just way to keep convincing oneself that one's religion is the right one or the best one or even the one true one.

Pachomius2000

pachomius2000 · 09-18-2004, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shven, thread post #4

Originally Posted by pachomius2000
But may I share here the words of the Master in Christianity, Jesus, about people who might have the good happenstance to have found the Kingdom, that they are like the merchant seeking for a pearl of great price, and once having found it would be so secretive that they would hide it most guardedly from other people.

Shouldn't people then with a religion be very secretive about thir pearl of great price, and just leave all those poor fellowmen who do not possess a pearl of great price, leave them to themselves in their blindness and unhappy fate?

Pachomius2000

Sven: "No. Christians should, since they hold Jesus' words sacrosanct. Non-Christian religious folk have no reason to follow this bit of advice."

Are you forgetting that the Master in Christianity is also very clear about His disciples going forth to preach to the whole world?

If we are to gather all the doctrines and precepts of the Master into a tabulation, and rank them according to their strength of certainty and coercive force, then we should have a good guide of how much each doctrine and each precept should be given attention to by all people claiming to follow the Master.

Thus on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the highrest, we can tell people that their main emphasis in their brand of Christianity rates oonly 2 or 3, or indeed 10, and accordingly to advise them to look for more certain doctrinces and precepts to emphasize, or congratulate them for having doctrines and precepts that all rate 10.

But the trouble is that all these doctrines and precepts rating 10 might be incompatible among themselves.

Pachomius2000

pachomius2000 · 09-18-2004, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire, thread post #8

John 9

Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
6Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7"Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.
8His neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging asked, "Isn't this the same man who used to sit and beg?" 9Some claimed that he was.
Others said, "No, he only looks like him."
But he himself insisted, "I am the man."
10"How then were your eyes opened?" they demanded.
11He replied, "The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see."
12"Where is this man?" they asked him.
"I don't know," he said.

............................

Christians are the mud (dust and spit) for the world. We know where that Man is...

Sir, please speak plainly. I am not good at decrypting what I seem to see as cryptic language.

Anyway, if you do know where that Man is Who I presume you referring to the as Master of Christianity, Jesus Christ, Who multiplied bread and healed people and cast out demons, please bring me to Him. We need Him here and now.

Pachomius2000

pachomius2000 · 09-18-2004, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zora

People like people that are like themselves. People are afraid of/distrustful of people who are not like them. If people share their religious beliefs and get other people to believe like themselves, they feel safer.

When humans were living in small clans, it was easy to know who to trust and who to fear. When societies became larger, it was necessary to invent common ground (religion perhaps) to help identify friend from foe. It seems more a fact of animal behavior to me. Nothing "altruistic" there at all, IMO.

As in safety in number?

I think your key to the behavior of why people with a religion wants to let others know about it and to explain it and to defend it and to even get people to join them, is very logical, namely, some specific advantages to themselves, in the present context, safety in number.

You have opened one very I think reliable approach to answer my inquiry: look for the advantages which are obvious to the eye, of course including the eye that sees into the mind and heart of people, also look into their material circumstances: what's for them in talking about their religion -- keep first and foremost to the as I would say down to earth considerations of life and human natural aspirations in his biological and emotional life.

Consider people like Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, the Dalai Lama, Pope John Paul II, what makes them different from people like you and me, and what the difference it produces for them.

The difference is that they talk about their religion and get people to join them and to take them for their mentors, and the difference they produce for themselves? Figuire that one out.

Pachomius2000

jdlongmire · 09-18-2004, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pachomius2000

Sir, please speak plainly. I am not good at decrypting what I seem to see as cryptic language.

Anyway, if you do know where that Man is Who I presume you referring to the as Master of Christianity, Jesus Christ, Who multiplied bread and healed people and cast out demons, please bring me to Him. We need Him here and now.

Pachomius2000

Where are you pachomius?

pachomius2000 · 09-19-2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire, thread post #15

Quote:
Originally Posted by pachomius2000
Sir, please speak plainly. I am not good at decrypting what I seem to see as cryptic language.

Anyway, if you do know where that Man is Who I presume you referring to the as Master of Christianity, Jesus Christ, Who multiplied bread and healed people and cast out demons, please bring me to Him. We need Him here and now.

Pachomius2000

Where are you pachomius?

May I be excused from sharing the datum of my physical whereabouts?

Just the same, I do want to meet Jesus. If He can exchange messages with us here, that would be all right; even though I don't get to see Him in person.

Pachomius2000

pachomius2000 · 09-21-2004, 07:15 AM

I looked up the fables of Aesop; he does not seem to have any theory about religion, but I found one which might offer an explanation of why people with a religion talk about their religion.

Here is the fable, it's about a mother monkey signing up her baby monkey in a beauty contest organized by Zeus.

http://www.mythfolklore.net/aesopica/oxford/253.htm

Quote:

253. THE BEAUTY CONTEST OF THE ANIMALS
Zeus had decided to award prizes to the most beautiful animal babies so he inspected each and every one of them in order to reach a decision. The monkey also participated, claiming to be the mother of a very beautiful baby: a naked, snub-nosed little monkey whom she cradled in her arms. When the gods took a look at that monkey, they all started to laugh but his mother insisted, 'The winner is for Zeus to decide! But in my eyes this one is the most beautiful of all.'

Religion is a brainchild of man; and for those who adopt a religion founded by another man, that religion then becomes their adopted brainchild.

As a brainchild, religion is like every other artifact of man; but with religion, man the craft worker produces a piece of speculation with his mind, about the ultra biological world. Even the ultra biological world is also his artifact, product of his imagination.

As it is most natural for a mother to think of her baby as the most beautiful, and to talk of her baby in flattering terms, so also does the person with a religion for a baby, his brainchild issuing forth from his mind or adopted from another as his very own.

Talking about one's religion in total approbation is no different from an artist talking about his painting, his sculpture, or a writer his book, a poet his verses.

In brief, why do people talk about their religion? Because that is the way with people, it is the natural thing to do, to talk about one's artifacts: in effects to congratulate oneselves before other people, as better off than other people, by showing off the products of our talents, and trying to convince people that the products are deserving of approbation and acceptance.

Pachomius2000

Ojuice5001 · 09-21-2004, 02:19 PM

That fable does have an application to religion. I think this application reallly lies not so much in the motivation for explaining your religion, as in the motive for sticking to it. Other religions may be more popular; other religions may be more rational. But the religious individual still feels that it's a good idea to stick to his own religion. And part of the reason is simply that yours own religion is yours, just like the mother monkey in the fable.

I also agree that a good religion is like a good work of art. Aesthetic factors do indeed enter into the equation. So it does make sense that one of the motives for talking about one's own religion is the same as the motive for talking about one's own favorite work of art.

pachomius2000 · 09-23-2004, 05:02 PM

[QUOTEthread post #18=Ojuice5001]That fable does have an application to religion. I think this application reallly lies not so much in the motivation for explaining your religion, as in the motive for sticking to it. Other religions may be more popular; other religions may be more rational. But the religious individual still feels that it's a good idea to stick to his own religion. And part of the reason is simply that yours own religion is yours, just like the mother monkey in the fable.

I also agree that a good religion is like a good work of art. Aesthetic factors do indeed enter into the equation. So it does make sense that one of the motives for talking about one's own religion is the same as the motive for talking about one's own favorite work of art.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Ojuice, for your concurrence.

What shall I say? But that I am vanity aside quite satisfied with my brainchild of a post on my observation from a hint by Aesop.

My idea is first before anything else to fathom the nitty-gritty of religion talk, then we can proceed to the rationalized motivations such as saving souls, making the world better for mankind, or the quest for meanings in life (whatever meanings means to people talking about meanings).

Like guys who are hovering around gals, first we must open our eyes to see what guys are at the end of the day really after in gals, then we can talk about other things they have in mind for themselves and of course they claim to be for the good of the gals.

Pachomius2000

pachomius2000 · 09-24-2004, 06:09 PM

In post #10, I wrote, among other things:

Quote:

I used to live in a neighborhood where my next door neighbor bought a really high volume music box and would play this new toy with maximum blaring capacity for the whole neighborhood to enjoy his kind of music, as he himself enjoyed it.

Allow me to make a correction, the phrase, music box, is not correct.

The neighbor actually bought a high tech music playing equipment, with a collection of speakers, not a music box in the sense of an old time device that produces music by means of pins on a revolving cylinder that strike the tuned teeth of a comb-like metal plate.

Sorry for the mistake.

Pachomius2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by pachomius2000

Thread post #10

I think you have brought up a very insightful observation of human behavior and the state of things with mankind.

People do engage in behavior to piss off other people.

I used to live in a neighborhood where my next door neighbor bought a really high volume music box and would play this new toy with maximum blaring capacity for the whole neighborhood to enjoy his kind of music, as he himself enjoyed it.

So I courteously asked him to turn down the volume or place his music box in the basesment and make sure all exits to the outside world would be sealed off: because I would like to enjoy some quiet in the enivironment.

No, he didn't accommodate; instead he bought an amplifier to make the 'music' even louder.

What did I do? What else but to close all the windows tight in my house.

No, I didn't notify the police, because knowing the guy as he was then, things would just get worse, seeing that he had the very common behavior of the wickedness of human nature, namely: to piss off people.

About your other observation, if there were no theists there wouldn't be any atheists, that is also very true.

Some very profound philosopher or philosophers tell us that man's mind is such that when he thinks of something in one direction automatically the same thought in the exact opposite direction will emerge in his mental grasp.

What is that principle or idea or discovery? Something like thesis will stir up antithesis.

Now, if you are smart you eventually come to some kind of a middle ground which they call synthesis.

Hopefully, we will have some kind of synthesis on why people want to tell other people about their religion, to explain it, to defend it, and even to get you to join them.

Pachomius2000

09-23-2004, 05:02 PM	#19
pachomius2000 Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Somewhere in time Posts: 1,072	Happy with our brainchild of a post.... [QUOTEthread post #18=Ojuice5001]That fable does have an application to religion. I think this application reallly lies not so much in the motivation for explaining your religion, as in the motive for sticking to it. Other religions may be more popular; other religions may be more rational. But the religious individual still feels that it's a good idea to stick to his own religion. And part of the reason is simply that yours own religion is yours, just like the mother monkey in the fable. I also agree that a good religion is like a good work of art. Aesthetic factors do indeed enter into the equation. So it does make sense that one of the motives for talking about one's own religion is the same as the motive for talking about one's own favorite work of art.[/QUOTE] Thanks. Ojuice, for your concurrence. What shall I say? But that I am vanity aside quite satisfied with my brainchild of a post on my observation from a hint by Aesop. My idea is first before anything else to fathom the nitty-gritty of religion talk, then we can proceed to the rationalized motivations such as saving souls, making the world better for mankind, or the quest for meanings in life (whatever meanings means to people talking about meanings). Like guys who are hovering around gals, first we must open our eyes to see what guys are at the end of the day really after in gals, then we can talk about other things they have in mind for themselves and of course they claim to be for the good of the gals. Pachomius2000

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-21-2004, 02:19 PM	#18
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	That fable does have an application to religion. I think this application reallly lies not so much in the motivation for explaining your religion, as in the motive for sticking to it. Other religions may be more popular; other religions may be more rational. But the religious individual still feels that it's a good idea to stick to his own religion. And part of the reason is simply that yours own religion is yours, just like the mother monkey in the fable. I also agree that a good religion is like a good work of art. Aesthetic factors do indeed enter into the equation. So it does make sense that one of the motives for talking about one's own religion is the same as the motive for talking about one's own favorite work of art.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.