Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-04-2013, 06:29 PM

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Can't you think for yourself? She is most fortunate to have found someone to promote her writings with no original ideas of his own. How is that even possible? Where does she end and you begin?

stephan huller · 02-04-2013, 06:30 PM

Tanya. Cite the passage

tanya · 02-04-2013, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the great scholar

Cite the passage

here's my answer:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto, post 279

Read through the thread. Philo gives many indications that the group he called Therapeutae studied the Jewish scriptures. Is that not an indication that they were Jewish?

Show me yours first, then I will show you mine....Where's the passage in VC where Philo claims the Therapeutae studied "Jewish scriptures".

Sheshbazzar · 02-04-2013, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

So if these Jews in Egypt prayed twice a day and had shrines in their houses, but also studied Jewish scripture and were written up by a noted Jewish writer, what is the problem with calling them Jews, as long as they weren't actually worshiping Serapis or some other clearly pagan god?

'So if these Jews in Egypt' ___ If they were Jews. That they were Jews is an assumption.

'prayed twice a day and had shrines in their houses,' ___No one knows anything about my prayer habits. Or what I may have in my house.
If I did pray twice a day, would that prove I am a Jew? If I have a shrine in my house, will that make me a Jew?
If a Hindu prays twice a day, and have a shrine in their house, does that make them Jewish?

'but also studied Jewish scripture'.___ I study Jewish scripture. and I am not a Jew.
Lots of Christian scholars have studied Jewish scripture. Does that prove they were really Jews?
Studying Jewish scripture is no evidence at all that anyone is Jewish, then or now.

'what is the problem with calling them Jews'___indeed I see no problem at all. But then there is more than one kind of 'Jew'.

'as long as they weren't actually worshiping Serapis or some other clearly pagan god?'____ Philo was a Greek culture embracing Hellenist Jew.

And the Hellenist Jews were notoriously willing to syncretize and to accept the names of pagan gods, rationalizing that as there was only one god anyway,
it didn't matter what name other nations called god. And as god wasn't really a male or a female anyway, it really didn't matter whether this god was referred to by them as a 'him' or as a 'her'.

For after all, 'God' is 'God' no matter what name other people may use for their God.' Right?

To a Hellenist Jew, 'Zeus Olympus' set in the Temple was considered just as good or the same as 'Yahweh Elohim' in the Temple, particularly if the change could better ingratiate them to their foreign masters, and facilitate maneuvering themselves to be in charge.

Philo would have likely cared less if the 'God' these Therapeutae worshiped was named Serapis, Isis, Theos, Jupiter, Zeus, Pan, or baby Horus.

To a Hellenist 'monotheist', 'God' was 'God' no matter what anyone called him, her, or it.

You know. ...I've heard it, you've heard it; 'A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.' ....or just as bad. Right?

A hundred million times and more tis' been said.

And most here believe it.

Toto · 02-04-2013, 08:16 PM

How about this

Quote:

And the interval between morning and evening is by them devoted wholly to meditation on and to practice of virtue, for they take up the sacred scriptures and philosophise concerning them, investigating the allegories of their national philosophy, since they look upon their literal expressions as symbols of some secret meaning of nature, intended to be conveyed in those figurative expressions

Quote:

And in every house there is a sacred shrine which is called the holy place, and the monastery in which they retire by themselves and perform all the mysteries of a holy life, bringing in nothing, neither meat, nor drink, nor anything else which is indispensable towards supplying the necessities of the body, but studying in that place the laws and the sacred oracles of God enunciated by the holy prophets, and hymns, and psalms, and all kinds of other things by reason of which knowledge and piety are increased and brought to perfection.

These two passages are interpreted by those who have spent time studying this as references to the Jewish Scriptures. After all, why would Philo refer to anything other than the Hebrew scripts as the sacred scriptures, especially when later we read about these Therapeutae performing the story of Exodus?

Quote:

Then they sing hymns which have been composed in honour of God in many metres and tunes, at one time all singing together, and at another moving their hands and dancing in corresponding harmony, and uttering in an inspired manner songs of thanksgiving, and at another time regular odes, and performing all necessary strophes and antistrophes. (85) Then, when each chorus of the men and each chorus of the women has feasted separately by itself, like persons in the bacchanalian revels, drinking the pure wine of the love of God, they join together, and the two become one chorus, an imitation of that one which, in old time, was established by the Red Sea, on account of the wondrous works which were displayed there; (86) for, by the commandment of God, the sea became to one party the cause of safety, and to the other that of utter destruction; for it being burst asunder, and dragged back by a violent reflux, and being built up on each side as if there were a solid wall, the space in the midst was widened, and cut into a level and dry road, along which the people passed over to the opposite land, being conducted onwards to higher ground; then, when the sea returned and ran back to its former channel, and was poured out from both sides, on what had just before been dry ground, those of the enemy who pursued were overwhelmed and perished. (87) When the Israelites saw and experienced this great miracle, which was an event beyond all description, beyond all imagination, and beyond all hope, both men and women together, under the influence of divine inspiration, becoming all one chorus, sang hymns of thanksgiving to God the Saviour, Moses the prophet leading the men, and Miriam the prophetess leading the women. (88) Now the chorus of male and female worshippers being formed, as far as possible on this model, makes a most humorous concert,

Not to mention the constant references to "God" - who else did Philo call God? These Therapeutae did not worship Zeus or Isis. They did not do the required rituals for those gods - they did not sacrifice animals in the Temple, or reinact Isis' raising Horus from the dead or practice magic spells.

As for being healers, Philo only says

Quote:

they are called therapeutae and therapeutrides, {1}{from therapeuoµ, "to heal."} either because they process an art of medicine more excellent than that in general use in cities (for that only heals bodies, but the other heals souls which are under the mastery of terrible and almost incurable diseases, which pleasures and appetites, fears and griefs, and covetousness, and follies, and injustice, and all the rest of the innumerable multitude of other passions and vices, have inflicted upon them)

In other words, contrary to tanya's selective quote mine, doctors only heal the body, but these Therapeutae practice a higher medicine that heals the soul of its self inflicted injuries.

Philo does not describe these philosophers as practicing any sort of medicine, taking sick people in, or healing their bodies.

This is getting ridiculous.

Robert Tulip · 02-04-2013, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

Stephan, I am not sure if you realize quite how foolish your behaviour on this thread appears. This is a serious discussion of who the Therapeuts were, but you persist in treating it like a joke.

Murdock has studied the Therapeuts in some depth, and I agree with her research. Your insulting ad hominem approach to her work reflects badly on your moral and intellectual standards, verging on bigotry.

At the background of this debate is the problem that Murdock argues for much stronger influence on the Judeo-Christian tradition from India and Egypt than is accepted by mainstream scholarship. This argument touches on deep problems of racial and cultural identity, with deep-seated assumptions creating prejudicial opinions among scholars. I agree with the bulk of her work on these topics. I find your facile rejection of Indian influence to be extremely stupid, completely lacking in substantive content. Deflecting to ad hominem insults reflects badly on you and does not hide the abject nature of your input to this thread.

Sheshbazzar · 02-04-2013, 09:09 PM

When victims are trapped within the narrow confines of their self-defined paradigmatic prisons, no one can release them but themselves.

stephan huller · 02-04-2013, 09:15 PM

Quote:

This is a serious discussion of who the Therapeuts were, but you persist in treating it like a joke.

If this were a serious discussion we would not be bringing up the Buddhist influences on the Therapeutae. Better luck starting a thread asking whether the Therapeutae were Ravens fans or 49er fans.

stephan huller · 02-04-2013, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Murdock has studied the Therapeuts in some depth, and I agree with her research.

Listen I don't want to talk about this person. She is not an expert on Philo of Alexandria or any other topic related to the discussion. If you love her so much why don't you marry her? And what's up with always making reference to Acharya? Do you have your own thoughts? Do you agree on every issue? Is there any points of disagreement between you? This would be an interest thread. 'Are there any points of disagreement between Robert Tulip and Acharya S?' I would truly be interested in this topic and perhaps we could invite the Guinness Book of World's Records. We have finally found someone who absolutely agrees with everything that someone else has written - and her expertise is 'everything in religious antiquity.' Incredible.

And what happened to that Dave guy who used to act as her emissary of light at this forum a while back? Is he off invading another forum and enlightening it with all this New Age nonsense? Do you have set 'missionary periods' or are you like Catholic priests with limits staying with a particular 'parish'?

Sheshbazzar · 02-04-2013, 09:44 PM

Sounds like jealousy. Or the dude that got jilted.

Had some nice conversations with Acharya have ya stephan?

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02-04-2013, 06:29 PM	#531
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Can't you think for yourself? She is most fortunate to have found someone to promote her writings with no original ideas of his own. How is that even possible? Where does she end and you begin?

02-04-2013, 06:30 PM	#532
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Tanya. Cite the passage

02-04-2013, 09:09 PM	#537
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	When victims are trapped within the narrow confines of their self-defined paradigmatic prisons, no one can release them but themselves.

02-04-2013, 09:44 PM	#540
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Sounds like jealousy. Or the dude that got jilted. Had some nice conversations with Acharya have ya stephan?

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