Clivedurdle

Claiming!

When I dream of Naomi Campbell the words I hear come from a real live Naomi?

Clivedurdle

Why exactly does "Lord's brother" have anything to do with Jesus?

mikem

No of course not. But my point is not aboutwhether Paul really did have a revelation from Naomi Campbell, whoops sorry, Jesus Christ, but what Paul believed about his revelation. The gospel "came through a revelation of Jesus Christ". This can mean either that Christ was the content of the revelation, or that he was the source of it. But since Paul beleived that Christ had been raised from the dead and was living with the Father, then it was a revelation concerning a real live Jesus.

mikem

Because it is being claimed that "James, the brother of the Lord", was related to Jesus biologically. It is also being claimed that Paul, along with the rest of the early Church, believed that the Lord Jesus Christ who they worshipped, was the same person as the human, historical Jesus who was related to James.

mikem

Something that occured to me after I posted last night, is that in 1 Corinthians 9:5, although Cephas is mentioned by name, James is not. And this would be because he is one of the brothers of the Lord. Any further reference to him would be redundant. I think that taken together, the passages in 1 Corinthians and Galatians provide very significant evidence for regarding these references as being straightforward descriptions, which in turn, show that Paul regarded Jesus as having lived in the recent past.

Amaleq13

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. Believing that Christ had been raised in no way precludes the notion that he appeared to Paul.

yalla

Using the Blue Letter Bible I found that:
The word Paul uses to describe JC and the alleged "appeared to'' or "seen of", in 1Cor 15.5ff, Cephas, 500 adelphos, James and "me'' [ie Paul] is exactly the same word in each of the 4 cases....''optanomai'' thus showing that all post-resurrection appearances were able to be described as the same by Paul.

Yet according to the gospels Cephas and James and the others met a human real body that could eat etc.. Not to mention Thomas and his fingering of the body.
Which is completely at odds to the appearance in Paul, described by Paul as god "pleased to reveal his son in me"[Gal. 1 .16].
No suggestion of physicality.
There has been a dramatic shift in the story from Paul to the gospels.

Oh and BTW I found another "brothers of the lord'' type description viz 1 Cor 6.6 where "the brotherhood" is mentioned again.
Also using the same word as in the other examples ie using "adelphos'' for James as brother of the lord and the same word for the brother hood of the lord and the same word for the brother hood and the same word for brother....
Consistently the same isn't it?

cheers
yalla

yalla

Where was:
.Paul when JC was "revealed in" him? On Earth or in [3rd] heaven?
.JC when he was revealed "in" Paul? Was he in heaven with god AND Paul? Was he on Earth "in' Paul?

Or was it just Paul believing he had an inner revelation of JC in himself?

Julian

This is consistent with Paul's use of the term brother. That particular verse reads: αλλα αδελφος μετα αδελφου κρινεται και τουτο επι απιστων

which I translate as But brother is judged against brother and this in front of unbelievers. Many translations say 'brother with brother' and don't use against but I believe that the genitive for the second brother indicates against. The NIV agrees with me.

Julian

Chunk

I dont see how 6:6 challenges what myself and mikem said. It can be taken as a literal brother against a literal brother, or a metaphorical brother against a metaphorical brother.

Nobody is being called the Jesus's literal brother in that passage, so 1 Cor 9:5 and the Galatians verse remain unique.