Magus55

I see this common with the fundamentalist crowd. They think we are completely worthless, pitiful, scraps of trash. Yet I say, God created us as his prize creation and loves us so much that he gave his son to save us. Sounds like God finds us rather special and valuable. :huh:

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

If you have ever had thoughts of malice, revenge, coveting, rebellion, disrespect, etc., impure thoughts, ... where do they come from?

ziffel

Special & valuable if you grovel at his feet and become a Christian. Otherwise, you get tossed into the fire like a ... well, like a completely worthless, pitiful, scrap of trash.

Ratel

Biological drives, I'd have to say. Malice, revenge, from the drive to destroy an organism's obstacles and enemies. Impure thoughts, from the reproductive drive. Not bad things in themselves, can often be bad when left unrestrained by higher mental processes.

Rebellion, disrespect, these seem to be reactions against perceived wrongdoing on the part of supposed authority figures, see the American War of Independence for an example.

Do you disagree?

espritch

The same place as thoughts of love, compassion, and kindness; from your own mind.

BadBadBad

I've given you for the sake of argument depravity. Establishing our depravity is not the issue for this thread. Differentiating total and utter depravity and God's involvement between the two is.

DBT

If the story happened to be true, they would come from God, as would all the things He created. Apparently....
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Lamentations 3:38

BadBadBad

Even though you don't share the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity, surely you agree that man and his relationship to God is defined and bounded by his sinful nature. The issues for this thread still apply.

On the absolute scale of God's morality, are there relative differences in the offensiveness of sin to God? Are we all equal in sin or are some more offensive to God in their sin? Is so, what is the basis for determining the relative offensiveness of particular sins and the sinners that commit them?

What do you believe limits the conscience of atheists in morality? Do you believe we are influenced by Satan? If our sinful nature has such a strong hold over us to blind us from God, what if anything then binds our conscience to God's morality on issues other than God?

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

Just a quick comment...

1. One one level, the critical factor is not how much (or to what extent) we fall short, but that we (all) FALL SHORT of God's standard of righteousness due to our sin. (Heb 12:15; Matt 5:8) His standard is perfection. A holy God can accept no less. Just as he rewards righteousness, he also must punish iniquity.

2. Biblically speaking, while all sin is an abomination, there are some sins more heineous before God than others. Obviously, it would be more heinous to act on a sinful thought in addition to having the thought, rather than just having the thought. Another indication can be found in the fact that consequences for violating God's laws were not all the same. God also holds some to greater accountability such as teachers, etc.

3. It is sin that blinds man. It is God's grace that keeps man from being worse than he is.

Some passages related to these subjects include: Jer 17:9; Rom 7:18; Rom 8:5; 1 Kings 8:46, Ps 143:2, Rom 3:12, 1 Jn 1:8 just to name a few.

I'll look forward to discussing more next week as time permits.

BadBadBad

On the level of this thread, the criticical factor is in fact how much we fall short, utterly or totally. Please try to stay on track. For the second time, that we fall short is given for the sake of argument.

As I pointed out, blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is one such sin, that I am willing to commit flippantly, yet you refuse to assume that I'm utterly depraved. That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of here.

You're repeating yourself and ignoring the response I've already made to this. Is this going to be a discussion or just a sermon of sound bites?