Pendaric

Could you give me a little more of your understanding of this passage when you have the time? I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it - if my interpretation is incorrect I'd like to have some more information.

MarkB4

TransverseWave - I would never say that. Evangelical seminaries don't teach that.

Tomboy Mom - that is what limits this forum - relationship - it is harder to establish trust in sound bites. All of the communication cues are missing. Yes, I have seen prayer work. I have seen people healed where our physical evidence (yes Doctor's reports, et al) made a clear diagnosis. I could introduce you to these people. One was a believer - one was not. Both were issues of cancer. The doctors themselves said that what they saw was miraculous (though I don't know that they were believers - but I recall thinking at the time they were not and they were not considering theh miracles to be supernatural - but unexplainable). So, it is about the same as the you consider frequency of biblically recorded mircales in Acts. I have seen others, but they were milder in terms of physical response and wouldn't be as convincing. There are more times that I have prayed for healing where I didn't get the answer I asked. There are many people who I have seen come out of terrible financial situations and emotional situations, but I expecty that to be less convinvicing to you. The greatest miracles have been in my own life. First, having a personal relationship with God, who I know and I walk through life with. I am open to the miraculous of course, as you are not, so I see a lot of things that you might write off as coincidence - but in responding to them I have begun to capitalize the C. Yes, this is a belief system.

Just trying to give you the best answer I can.

Mark

Yggdrasill

Any request made to any being, imaginary or otherwise, will always be either yes, no or later, so if those three are all acceptable answers, praying to santa is as effective as praying to your god.

Have you ever observed anything that could not occur naturally happening after it was prayed for? Because every verifiable prayer story I've ever heard of could have had the same outcome in a world without any gods.

"The rescue workers managed to save someone! It's a miracle!"

Pendaric

<The 'torture-god' de-rail has been split to here.>

TomboyMom

I appreciate you answering at all, but you didn't directly answer the question that I asked. I asked you to define what you meant by "works." I infer that what you mean is that sick people who are prayed for get better at a higher rate than those who are not?

Once again you are asking me to rely on your word and your perceptions. I have never met you. If I told you that I had seen prayer fail to work, would you believe me? Do you have any objective, documented evidence that prayer works?

Do you think that prayer could cause an amputee's severed limb to grow back? Why not?

Julian

Secular humanism is not a belief system. Secularism is a lack of a belief system. That why we can hardly ever agree on anything.
Well, we are kinda hard on belief systems around here. That harshness should never extend to the individual. If you feel that you have been the target of any ad hominem attacks you should certainly report them at once. You see, we are quite relentlessly hard on that around here.
Some do hate christianity, not the individual christian. Unfortunately, we have to deal with a rather fundamentalist country, where the laws that we live under get changed to impose their religious views on us. It tends to make us upset with the belief system. Again, I realize that you are not a bible tumping nutcase, I was adressing the religious activists in this country.
I don't trust personal experiences that conflict with reason and evidence, even if they happen to me. The human brain is fallible, the scientific method much less so.

Julian

steamer

Do you believe a racists belief system deserves respect? How about a slave owners belief system? How about a rapist? What? You don't respect those views? Why not? Neither the racists, the slave owner or the rapist profess love for evil, but what they believe is evil.

Explain to me why it is ok to hate a racist for his views but not to hate a Christian for their views or a Christians idea of god and that god's views for that matter.

That's nice. I'm pretty sure most rapists and theives of all sorts have views which make their beliefs more palatable to them. I'd like to ask you what kind of god you love? Does your god torture men women and children? Does your love of this god say anything about you personally? I think it does.

Pendaric

<Mod - note - This thread is for the discussion of the effectiveness or otherwise of prayer. Please try to stay on topic. There are other threads currently ongoing for other discussions. And please remember to stay civil.>

MarkB4

Lane, you wrote: So tell me Mark, when Hindus pray to Shiva, are their prayers answered? What about Vishnu? When Muslims pray to Allah, are their prayers answered? Many Catholics pray to Mary, and the various saints (hell, I still have a St. Christopher cross in my car...it was a gift, and I keep it in the intent it was meant.). When they pray to the saints, are their prayers answered?

The way I read Scripture, God's hears prayers. Is that restricted to Christians? The only prayers I see that are not heard in the Bible are those of believer husbands who mistreat their wives (1Pet 3:7 and Mal 2:13-14) and the Israelites when they are in rebellion to God - both were guilty of not doing what they were already commanded to do.

Worldtraveller

But Hindus don't follow the bible. They are, by default, not in accordance with what they are supposed to be doing (according to the bible) no?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but your answer is vague (at best). If you think Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Sihks, Shinto and the otehrs are false religions, just say so.

Cheers,
Lane