Toto

But what did the earliest Christians believe? Did it involve a bodily resurrection?

James Brown

I think you're missing the point. Why is it that Christian missionaries generally found greater success the farther away from Jerusalem they went? Since Christians pride themselves that their religion is an historical one, based on real-world historical events, why is it that locals to the events in question had a lower conversion rate?

Suppose residents of Kirtland, Ohio in the mid-1800's converted to Mormonism at a much lower rate than residents of, say, New York City. (In fact, the opposite is true.) Would that strengthen or weaken a Mormon's claims that the supernatural elements of Mormonism are based on real-world events?

Minimalist

In one of the so-called "authentic" epistles ( 2 Corinthians ) Saul/Paul gives a historical marker for about 80 BC ( His "escape" from Damascus under the rule of Aretas.)

Aretas III conquered Damascus in the mid 80's BC and held it for a generation or so. No Greco-Roman historian that I have checked (or even Josephus) makes any reference to Damascus being given back to Nabatea in the first century AD. Odd, eh?

arnoldo

Some of the early gnostic christians perhaps believed in a spiritual, rather than physical resurrection. One such document (Papyri of the Nag Hammadi library) by early christian gnostics can be found in the Coptic Museum which has the following information on early Christianity in Egypt. .

Diogenes the Cynic

What is your evidence that the Jerusalem cult shared any beliefs at all with proto-orthodox Christianity?

gstafleu

It is not so much what they knew, it is what they were: Hellenized Jews in a non-Jewish community, and as such marginalized with respect to both Judaism and the surrounding religion. That means they were open to a religion that would integrate them to both sides: Christianity, which is a Hellenized form of Judaism. The Jews in Jerusalem, on the other hand, were not marginal and out-of-place when it came to religion. They had no reason to change, while their Roman cousins most certainly did. (And neither did the "pagans" (i.e. the majority) in Rome have any reason to convert, just in case you are wondering: so they didn't).

And no, any accounts of a crucifixion would not have had much influence on anybody.

Gerard Stafleu

arnoldo

There is ample evidence there was a split in judaism between belief in a bodily vs spiritual resurrection re. the split between the Sadducees vs. the Pharisees.

gstafleu

Maybe, but as Carrier points out, such stories (and their accompanying magi and other con-men) were a dime a dozen in those days, and people didn't flock to any of them in great numbers. So again, the theology, in this case the resurrection bit, is a strictly secondary factor for the success of a religion. The Jews in Jerusalem were reasonably secure in their religion, simply because it was everybody's religion. So why would they look for something else (something else being something different enough--e.g a real-life and resurrected to boot Messiah who doesn't just save the nation but saves individuals--to call it a new religion, as opposed to the minor changes (usually more strict interpretations) of the current religion that result in sects)? That is why Christianity didn't spread in Jerusalem (if it even started there...), never mind convoluted ideas about verifiability of theological niceties.

(And if you can parse that sentence with all the parentheses and hyphens you get extra brownie points .)

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu

That depends a bit on who counts as early Christian. Did their leaders, like Paul, believe in a bodily resurrection? Given Doherty, probably not. Did the average believer catch all the niceties about their Messiah's (being Hellenized Jews they probably did know what that was, my earlier discussion with Ben notwithstanding) resurrection not really being on earth? Probably not all of them, and the more time passed the fewer of them would get it. That would explain the success of the gospel version.

Gerard Stafelu

show_no_mercy

Not all Christians in the first century believed in a resurrection. The resurrection being a fundamental aspect of Christianity didn't start becoming popular until the 2nd century with both Pauline and Gnostic Christians. Not so much with the "Judaizers" though.