jgibson000

Yes. But I'm surprised you ask. After all, you claim to be up on, and on top of, all the latest scholarship, don't you?

JG

Steven Avery

Shabbat shalom, Jeffrey.

jgibson000

Ah, how delightful: another dodge disguised as a good will blessing and piety used as an excuse for not answering a question.

JG

Toto

Could you show me where Carrier quotes Sanders, much less misquotes or misrepresents him?

jgibson000

Read the message from Ted/Jacob above.

Or perhaps I misunderstood what Ted/Jacob was saying.

In any case, it's clear that Ted/Jacob had given us a misleading impression of what Sanders was saying.

Jeffrey

Toto

Ted quotes himself reflecting on Sanders, then wonders if Sanders is trying to harmonize the gospels and quotes Carrier to the effect that Matt and Luke cannot be harmonized.

Carrier does not discuss Sanders, and has no reason to.

From the description of Sanders, Ted may misunderstand what most people think of as harmonization. Sanders is not an inerrantist, and is not doing that sort of "harmonization."

Still, the question as to whether it is true that "the Birth of Jesus in 4 BCE is almost beyond dispute" is legitmate. Would you say that claimed factoid is almost beyond dispute?

Toto

Sanders can be read online at Amazon. Sanders lists some "facts" that are beyond dispute - that Jesus was born c. 4 BC, that he spent his early childhood and adult years in Nazareth, that he was baptized by John the Baptizer, that he called disciples, taught in the villages and countryside in Galilee but not cities, that he preached the Kingdom of God, that he went to Jerusalem for Passover around 30, created a disturbance in the Temple area, had a final meal with his disciples, was arrested and interrogated by Jewish authorities, including the high priest, and was executed on the orders of Pontius Pilate. Sanders also considers it to be "secure facts" that his disciples fled, that they saw him (in some form) after his death, and formed a community to await his return.

Almost all of these "facts" are only found in the gospels. Sanders is asserting without proof that there is a strong historical core to the gospels.

Is it not misleading to overstate the quality of the evidence in this fashion?

jgibson000

I think it is better to say that the scholarly consensus among historians -- both believers and non believers - who accept the historicity of Jesus, is that Jesus was born not much before the death of Herod (4 BCE).

Jeffrey

jgibson000

If he had overstated them, perhaps

What is misleading is your presenting Sanders as speaking about these "facts" more absolutely than he does.

JG

Toto

I'm just reading the words on the page - "almost beyond dispute" "equally secure facts." In what way am I misleading?

I realize that this particular book by Sanders is written for a more general audience. Is he more nuanced when he writes for scholars?