Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 08-28-2007, 07:10 AM

Thanks, John. That's very useful stuff.

Cege · 08-28-2007, 08:08 AM

As many times as I've looked at that passage and wondered about it, I never noticed that the many dead who arose hung around in the broken-open tombs for a couple of days. Those resurrected dead were supposed to be walking around Jerusalem at the same time resurrected Jesus was appearing to his disciples. Even more incredible!

Matthew 15:51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

And there are absolutely no mentions anywhere by anyone other than the writer of GMatthew.

After resurrection Jesus was apparently clothed in clothing contemporary to that time, although he'd been buried in the nude. Can't help but wonder what the "many resurrected" were supposed to be wearing as they walked in the streets of Jerusalem.

Cheerful Charlie · 08-28-2007, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

In his book "Jesus is Dead (or via: amazon.co.uk)," Robert Price makes a point I honestly hadn't really thought of before. According to Matthew 27:51-53,

"At that moment [of Jesus' death] the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

Now, if that really happened, Price points out, then Jerusalem would have been literally filled with empty tombs (pardon the oxymoron) that weekend, and people all over the city would have been experiencing the exact same thing Jesus' disciples were - which is encountering the walking corpses of their dearly departed loved ones. Not only does this utterly diminish the uniqueness of the disciples' experience with Jesus but the uniqueness of Jesus' empty tomb as well. In fact, Jesus' tomb would have been the last to open, making him rather the Johnny-come-lately of the group. Also, imagine the utter chaos taking place in the city at that time. The disciples' experience would have been just one of many similar dramas taking place concurrently throughout Jerusalem. And how could such an extraordinarily unprecedented widespread event go unremarked upon in the histories of the time (or the other gospel accounts even)?

I know this has been discussed many times on here before, but somehow Price's book really brought the absurdity of it home to me for the first time by dramatizing it so effectively.

The point of Matthew is that there are many more besides Jesus that will arise from the dead. Matthew 24-6 tells us that the end of the world and judgment day will happen soon, in the life span of the high priest (Matthew 24:30, Matthew 26:64). Even in Paul's epsitles he speaks of some already who have "fallen asleep". This tale then, is to assure those who worry about dying before the second coming of Matthew 24, that they will not be cheated by fate from eternal life in the new kingdom.
which point Paul has to assure people of the same.

The absurdity is that had this happened, many would have noted this, especially lawywers and judges. If a many dies, and his wife remarries and he is all of a sudden alive again, who's wife is she? Has he comiitted adultery? Is his property his again? These "saints" also would have become somewhat celebrities, at least among the Christians of that day. Nobody thought to write any of this down?

CC

Minimalist · 08-28-2007, 09:17 AM

Bart Ehrman makes the point that the last twelve verses of "Mark" were a later addition to the text, anyway.

"The verses are absent from our two oldest and best manuscripts of Mark's Gospel."

Page 67...."Misquoting Jesus."

Ben C Smith · 08-28-2007, 10:02 AM

Ignatius may refer to this part of Matthew in Magnesians 9.2:

∏ως ημεις δυνησομεθα ζησαι χωρις αυτου, ου και οι προφηται μαθηται οντες τω πνευματι ως διδασκαλον αυτον προσεδοκων; και δια τουτο ον δικαιως ανεμενον παρων εγειρεν αυτους εκ νεκρων.

How will we be able to live apart from him, whose prophets, being disciples, waited in the spirit for him as their teacher? And on this account he for whom they justly waited, while he was present, raised them from the dead.

These prophets appear to be OT saints who anticipated the advent of Christ in the spirit. So the passage seems to be saying that Jesus raised OT saints while he was present [παρων].

Ben.

Roland · 08-28-2007, 11:44 AM

Since this incident is only found in a single verse in the Bible, it's easy for people to read it and say, "Oh, that's interesting" and never stop to think about the full implications of it if it were indeed an actual event. Price makes us actually pause and examine it and, thereby, see the utter absurdity of it.

DramaQ · 08-28-2007, 01:10 PM

A city of walking-dead saints may be spectacular, but it’s not a precedent.

All four gospels have pre-Resurection raising of the dead:

Mark 5:41-, Matt 9:23-, Luke 8:53-
John 11:43-

Doesn't the same problem apply to these examples?

dq

EarlDoherty · 08-29-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben

Ignatius may refer to this part of Matthew in Magnesians 9.2:

∏ως ημεις δυνησομεθα ζησαι χωρις αυτου, ου και οι προφηται μαθηται οντες τω πνευματι ως διδασκαλον αυτον προσεδοκων; και δια τουτο ον δικαιως ανεμενον παρων εγειρεν αυτους εκ νεκρων.

How will we be able to live apart from him, whose prophets, being disciples, waited in the spirit for him as their teacher? And on this account he for whom they justly waited, while he was present, raised them from the dead.

These prophets appear to be OT saints who anticipated the advent of Christ in the spirit. So the passage seems to be saying that Jesus raised OT saints while he was present [παρων].

Sorry, but this is just another example of trying to squeeze out something from a text when it is not evidently there--and if it were there would inevitably have been stated much more clearly. If Ignatius has such a dramatic 'event' in mind as Matthew's corpses of the saints rising, it is impossible he would have referred to it so obliquely and obscurely.

It is also an indication that Ignatius in fact did not know the Gospel of Matthew. In any case, he never openly appeals to a written document and never says anything that couldn't be taken as floating sayings or traditions that later found their way into written Gospels (which is the principle held by Helmut Koester and others).

On the matter of the authenticity of Ignatius, I am of two minds. The Shorter Recension is clearly the original, and the very fact that the Longer Rescension contains so much Gospel material, whereas virtually none of that is present in the Shorter, indicates that the original version is much earlier. I am sympathetic to the arguments which point out the infeasibility of much of the scenario of Ignatius going off in chains yet still receiving visitors and writing letters from/to all and sundry. Perhaps the best compromise solution is that the original version of Ignatius was written within a decade or two of his martyrdom, which would still place it at a time when the idea of an HJ was still fresh out of the oven, and the Gospels were not yet in any wide circulation--at least as history. Perhaps around 120?

Earl Doherty

08-28-2007, 10:02 AM	#15
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Ignatius may refer to this part of Matthew in Magnesians 9.2: ∏ως ημεις δυνησομεθα ζησαι χωρις αυτου, ου και οι προφηται μαθηται οντες τω πνευματι ως διδασκαλον αυτον προσεδοκων; και δια τουτο ον δικαιως ανεμενον παρων εγειρεν αυτους εκ νεκρων. How will we be able to live apart from him, whose prophets, being disciples, waited in the spirit for him as their teacher? And on this account he for whom they justly waited, while he was present, raised them from the dead. These prophets appear to be OT saints who anticipated the advent of Christ in the spirit. So the passage seems to be saying that Jesus raised OT saints while he was present [παρων]. Ben.

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08-28-2007, 07:10 AM	#11
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Thanks, John. That's very useful stuff.

08-28-2007, 08:08 AM	#12
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	As many times as I've looked at that passage and wondered about it, I never noticed that the many dead who arose hung around in the broken-open tombs for a couple of days. Those resurrected dead were supposed to be walking around Jerusalem at the same time resurrected Jesus was appearing to his disciples. Even more incredible! Matthew 15:51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. And there are absolutely no mentions anywhere by anyone other than the writer of GMatthew. After resurrection Jesus was apparently clothed in clothing contemporary to that time, although he'd been buried in the nude. Can't help but wonder what the "many resurrected" were supposed to be wearing as they walked in the streets of Jerusalem.

08-28-2007, 09:17 AM	#14
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Bart Ehrman makes the point that the last twelve verses of "Mark" were a later addition to the text, anyway. "The verses are absent from our two oldest and best manuscripts of Mark's Gospel." Page 67...."Misquoting Jesus."

08-28-2007, 11:44 AM	#16
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	Since this incident is only found in a single verse in the Bible, it's easy for people to read it and say, "Oh, that's interesting" and never stop to think about the full implications of it if it were indeed an actual event. Price makes us actually pause and examine it and, thereby, see the utter absurdity of it.

08-28-2007, 01:10 PM	#17
DramaQ Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 236	A city of walking-dead saints may be spectacular, but it’s not a precedent. All four gospels have pre-Resurection raising of the dead: Mark 5:41-, Matt 9:23-, Luke 8:53- John 11:43- Doesn't the same problem apply to these examples? dq

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