Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Benni72 · 04-28-2006, 07:42 AM

http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodf...ch/davies5.htm

Vorkosigan · 04-28-2006, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldarion Lathria

Did the talking donkey go around with a green ogre? And sing songs?

Eldarion Lathria

No, silly. That is just later mythologization over an historical core.

Vorkosigan

Oolon Colluphid · 04-28-2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidfromTexas

You know that you referred to plural as a singular, yes? ("a" plural)

If you can explain how that was grammatically incorrect, please do.

Quote:

Some people think of it as the "Royal we"...

Used nowhere else. God got a bit less regal in the rest of the bible.

Quote:

Christians see it as the Holy Trinity.

And the Hebrews didn't realise. And it's used nowhere else. And the trinity concept is an abuse of logic. And that's off topic...

The Bishop · 04-28-2006, 08:27 AM

Tut! Even the Bible itself includes the rules about not naming the deity. Gen 1:1 happens to follow that, that's all. Scholarship is reasonably clear that P postdates J, consequently the oldest name (not the first one you read

) is Yahweh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benni72

Then I'd pick Jehu or Mesha of Moab.

Yep. Jehu would be my pick, because we're not talking about a potentially mythical eponym, like dwd or humri, but a labelled bloke in a picture. And I've actually seen the damn thing in the British Museum. I found that mindblowing. So, excluding enemy kings for whom there is undoubtedly more attestation (Iasion menitioned Tiglath-Pileser III, for instance), Jehu, king of Israel, named and pictured on a stela. c. 840 BCE iirc.

Benni72 · 04-28-2006, 12:31 PM

Tiglath-Pileser is later, anyway. And Pharaoh Rameses isn't named in the Bible. Still, I have to correct myself: according to the link from my previous post, the Kurkh stele mentions King Ahab of "sir-il-la-a-a" (presumably = "Israel").

Chris Weimer · 04-28-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidfromTexas

The answer is obvious.

The earliest name in the Bible that we can say with reasonable probability is a real person is Elohim.

This name is found in Genesis 1:1.

Cheers.

So Elohim is no longer God than, huh? So all this time, you were worshipping only a person, and not a deity. Who'dathunkit?

sismofyt · 04-29-2006, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oolon Colluphid

Evidence and reasoning please -- for all the ones people have listed. You'll gather I'm outside my usual area (these days at least), so I'd like to collect a few facts

. I guess the question can be refined to, first person for whom there is extra-Biblical corroborative evidence -- otherwise DfT might be right

.

the stele of salmanasser the 3rd, (858-824 bce) mentions this; "i recieved tribute from jehu, son of omri; silver, gold, a goldbowl, a goldvessel, goldcups, bialers(?) of gold, tin, a scepter for the kings hand and a wooden spear"

translated from danish (dr. phil mogens trolle larsen "gudens skygge"), as i have a hard time finding a proper english link, sorry

but i don't think there's any controversy over this stele and it's inscription

Rick Sumner · 04-29-2006, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oolon Colluphid

Used nowhere else. God got a bit less regal in the rest of the bible.

Gods were frequently referred to in the plural in Hebrew. And that's gods in general, not just their god. Baruch Halpern provides some helpful information here:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/Baal/baal1.html

"Used nowhere else" was perhaps overstating it a little.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Valahan · 04-29-2006, 02:36 PM

Tidal King of Nations.

rob117 · 04-29-2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berthold

Considering that it has been found out by Israeli archaeologists that King Solomon must, at least, have been heavily embroidered on by the authors of Scripture, I would place my bets on some date none too early. Of someone named David (whoever he really was), an inscription of the right age has been found, if I recall correctly. But of Solomon, allegedly an internationally very active king, no mention in any of the neighbouring states is known. Some grand buildings were initially ascribed to him by their discoverers. It is now the general consensus, though, that they really belong to the North Kingdom (Israel), which is mentioned in the OT, usually not in a laudatory way.

This is not the general consensus; it's a relatively recent redating by Finkelstein et al that is not accepted by the majority of archaeologists, who still date these buildings as Solomonic.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the earliest historical personage in the Bible is Aaron. Of course I don't believe he was involved in the Exodus as the Bible has it (I believe the Exodus is unhistorical), but genetic evidence suggests that the Jerusalem priesthood was indeed descended from a single male ancestor- see the Cohen modal haplotype.

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04-28-2006, 07:42 AM	#21
Benni72 Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Rostock, Germany Posts: 143	http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodf...ch/davies5.htm

04-28-2006, 12:31 PM	#25
Benni72 Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Rostock, Germany Posts: 143	Tiglath-Pileser is later, anyway. And Pharaoh Rameses isn't named in the Bible. Still, I have to correct myself: according to the link from my previous post, the Kurkh stele mentions King Ahab of "sir-il-la-a-a" (presumably = "Israel").

04-29-2006, 02:36 PM	#29
Valahan Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 16	Tidal King of Nations.

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