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Old 09-18-2006, 01:35 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle View Post
Stephen Carlson discusses the Callinicus manuscript on pages 44-45 of his book (and notes).
No, Andrew, this is not correct. Carlson only devotes one sentence to the Callinicus manuscript on p. 45. So this is hardly a "discussion".

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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
The similarities to the Callinicus manuscript show that the Mar Saba letter is either an 18th century Western Greek hand or a deliberate imitation thereof.
Sorry, but this is nonsense. What is a "Western Greek hand", to begin with?

In his book, Carlson only devotes one short paragraph to this whole matter of "Western Greek hand", and the way he treats this matter is just laughable, if not deliberately misleading...

The deliberately misleading part (as I suspect) is in the way he conflates "Western" as "West European", and "Western" as "coming from the western Greece" (as opposed to eastern Greece).

Now, if someone told me that they can tell the difference between a letter written by someone from the eastern part of England, and someone coming from the west of England, frankly, I'll not believe them. So this is in so far as the western Greece as opposed to eastern Greece goes.

This matter of western Greece as opposed to eastern Greece I just see as a bit of a distraction. Nothing definite could be built on this at all.

But what Carlson does is artfully add into this (already rather tipsy) mix the question of "the influence of Western typography" -- A TOTALLY UNRELATED MATTER!

And so, quite magically, in this rather short one paragraph of Carlson's, the two "Westerns" become one! :redface:

So this is why I think that Carlson is actually trying to hoax us all with his little book... It's things like that that made me suspicious right from the beginning...

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
Stephen Carlson argues that a Western Greek style of handwriting
Oh, yes, "a Western Greek style of handwriting"... :notworthy:

LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
would not be expected from a typical 18th century monk at Mar Saba in Palestine,
Sure enough! No Greek monks from Greece could ever reside in the Mar Saba Greek monastery in the Holy Land! LOL!

It's arguments like this that make me think that Carlson's book is actually a hoax...

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
but is plausibly the type of Greek script that Morton Smith would produce if seeking to imitate an 18th century Greek hand.

Andrew Criddle
Thanks for the laughs, Andrew.

And now, back to the original subject that I've raised. What about this manuscript that was discovered by Prof. Skouvaras? Why did Carlson never even mention him in his book?

Regards,

Yuri.
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Old 09-19-2006, 10:15 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky View Post
Sorry, but this is nonsense. What is a "Western Greek hand", to begin with?

In his book, Carlson only devotes one short paragraph to this whole matter of "Western Greek hand", and the way he treats this matter is just laughable, if not deliberately misleading...

The deliberately misleading part (as I suspect) is in the way he conflates "Western" as "West European", and "Western" as "coming from the western Greece" (as opposed to eastern Greece).

Now, if someone told me that they can tell the difference between a letter written by someone from the eastern part of England, and someone coming from the west of England, frankly, I'll not believe them. So this is in so far as the western Greece as opposed to eastern Greece goes.

This matter of western Greece as opposed to eastern Greece I just see as a bit of a distraction. Nothing definite could be built on this at all.
Western Greece and Eastern Greece in this context mean the Greek mainland (modern Greece), and modern Turkey respectively.

In the 18th century (and till the population movements of the early 20th century) a large fraction of the Greek speaking population lived in what is now modern Turkey.

Andrew Criddle
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Old 09-19-2006, 01:40 PM   #143
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Western Greece and Eastern Greece in this context mean the Greek mainland (modern Greece), and modern Turkey respectively.

In the 18th century (and till the population movements of the early 20th century) a large fraction of the Greek speaking population lived in what is now modern Turkey.

Andrew Criddle
So how is this relevant to the fact that the handwriting of Skouvaras MS is strikingly similar to that of our Mar Saba MS?

Yuri.
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Old 09-19-2006, 10:56 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky View Post
So how is this relevant to the fact that the handwriting of Skouvaras MS is strikingly similar to that of our Mar Saba MS?

Yuri.
There is a photo of the Skouvaras MS on p 454 of Morton Smith's CA and a SGM IMVHO although the similarities appear real they should not be exaggerated.

For example the NU's do appear strikingly similar (as Morton Smith claims) but again for example the Theta's and Lambda's in the Skouvaras MS appear similar to other 18th century MS and without the unusual features found in the Mar Saba manuscript and described in Stephen Carlson's book on pps 46-47.

Andrew Criddle
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Old 09-24-2006, 01:35 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle View Post
There is a photo of the Skouvaras MS on p 454 of Morton Smith's CA and a SGM IMVHO although the similarities appear real they should not be exaggerated.

For example the NU's do appear strikingly similar (as Morton Smith claims) but again for example the Theta's and Lambda's in the Skouvaras MS appear similar to other 18th century MS
Oh, I see, Andrew...

So I guess the answer to my original question is that these striking similarities between the Mar Saba MS and the Skouvaras MS are... purely accidental?

Just another *happenstance* that Carlson must somehow sweep under the rug?

I think we've accumulated quite a few of these *happenstances* by now... Of course my favourite is the whole set of them that was based on the discoveries of Dr. Talley -- six *happenstances* in all!

Thomas Talley in support of Secret Mark http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/talley.htm

Here they are again.

We seem to have the following apparent coincidences,

#1
-- LGM purports to come out of Egypt.
-- Our Coptic sources also come out of Egypt.

#2
-- LGM says Jesus was a Baptist.
-- Our Coptic sources also say that Jesus was a Baptist.

#3
Since our Coptic testimony comes from not just one, but two apparently independent sources, all these coincidences are thereby _doubled_.

#4
-- The time frame for Jesus' baptising activities, as indicated in LGM, is just before his entry into Jerusalem.
-- The time frame for Jesus' baptising activities, as indicated in our Coptic sources, is also just before Jesus' entry into Jerusalem.

And so, we have the three coincidences here and, doubled by two, we get six coincidences in all.

So how many of these "coincidences" are necessary in order to sink Carlson's debunking theory totally and completely?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
and without the unusual features found in the Mar Saba manuscript and described in Stephen Carlson's book on pps 46-47.

Andrew Criddle
Oh, yes, "the unusual features found in the Mar Saba manuscript", that nobody other than Carlson seems to find unusual...

I haven't yet dealt here with any of these handwriting comparisons that Carlson dwells on in his book... They just have this unreal and trumped up quality that only a true believer will find convincing.

Let's just look at it this way. In all, Carlson drags in, with his photos, 17 words from Smith's occasional scribbling in Greek... That's 17 words in Smith's handwriting. And based on these 17 words he writes a whole book?

How can anyone base such serious accusations with only 17 words to compare? Seems like voodoo to me, rather than serious analysis.

Regards,

Yuri.
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Old 09-24-2006, 02:58 PM   #146
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As usual, Yuri, you still haven't quite mastered math class, have you?
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:41 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky View Post
Oh, I see, Andrew...

So I guess the answer to my original question is that these striking similarities between the Mar Saba MS and the Skouvaras MS are... purely accidental?
Even if 'Secret Mark' were authentic the two manuscripts were certainly not written by the same person.

Some of the agreements between the Skouvaras manuscript and 'Secret Mark' compared to say typical 18th century handwriting from Mar Saba might be purely accidental but there are other possibilities. EG

Possibly the author of the 'Secret Mark' manuscript and the author of the Skouvaras MS had both been influenced by printed Greek fonts

Possibly both had been influenced by styles of Greek handwriting reasonably common on the Greek mainland in the 18th century but unusual at Mar Saba at that time.

What the Skouvaras MS shows is that some but not all of the differences of the handwriting of 'Secret Mark' from that usual at Mar Saba in the 18th century are found in genuine 18th century texts from locations other than Mar Saba.

Assuming FTSOA that the script of 'Secret Mark' is a modern imitation of 18th century cursive written by someone using as his examplars 18th century Greek handwriting from locations other than Mar Saba then this is what one would probably expect.

Andrew Criddle
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Old 10-01-2006, 02:52 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle View Post
Even if 'Secret Mark' were authentic the two manuscripts were certainly not written by the same person.

Some of the agreements between the Skouvaras manuscript and 'Secret Mark' compared to say typical 18th century handwriting from Mar Saba might be purely accidental
Well, I'm just questioning this part... There seem to be far too many accidents going on here for Carlson to be correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
but there are other possibilities. EG

Possibly the author of the 'Secret Mark' manuscript and the author of the Skouvaras MS had both been influenced by printed Greek fonts
And these two authors were the only ones in the world to have been influenced by printed Greek fonts? Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
Possibly both had been influenced by styles of Greek handwriting reasonably common on the Greek mainland in the 18th century but unusual at Mar Saba at that time.
Well, this makes even less sense, sorry... If such style of Greek handwriting was indeed "common on the Greek mainland", then there should be 1000s of manuscripts like this all over the place, right? So then how come Dr. Skouvaras flagged this particular manuscript, and no other???

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
What the Skouvaras MS shows is that some but not all of the differences of the handwriting of 'Secret Mark' from that usual at Mar Saba in the 18th century are found in genuine 18th century texts from locations other than Mar Saba.

Assuming FTSOA that the script of 'Secret Mark' is a modern imitation of 18th century cursive written by someone using as his examplars 18th century Greek handwriting from locations other than Mar Saba then this is what one would probably expect.

Andrew Criddle
Sorry, Andrew, but none of this reasoning addresses the fact that Dr. Skouvaras flagged that particular 18c manuscript as showing some special similarities with our Mar Saba MS. These specific individual similarities go far beyond any generic similarities that may be also found widely in thousands of other 18c Greek manuscripts.

How many more 'strange accidents' will it be necessary in order to sink Carlson's preposterous accusations against Morton Smith?

Regards,

Yuri.
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Old 10-02-2006, 06:25 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky View Post
Sorry, Andrew, but none of this reasoning addresses the fact that Dr. Skouvaras flagged that particular 18c manuscript as showing some special similarities with our Mar Saba MS. These specific individual similarities go far beyond any generic similarities that may be also found widely in thousands of other 18c Greek manuscripts.

How many more 'strange accidents' will it be necessary in order to sink Carlson's preposterous accusations against Morton Smith?

Regards,

Yuri.
Presumably the manuscript was (despite its dissimilarities) the closest in handwriting to the Mar Saba manuscript among those available to Dr Skouvaras.

I don't think we have evidence to say how rare such a handweriting style was although it would seem unilkely to have been unique.

Even if it should be very rare, I'm not clear that showing that the handwriting of the Mar Saba manuscript presents features not fully found in any other surviving text and partially present in one surviving manuscript only (a manuscript written far from Mar Saba), would really support authenticity.

You do seem to be accepting that the Mar Saba manuscipt is written in a strikingly different hand from that found for other texts at Mar Saba; without IMO recognising the problems this poses for authenticity.

Andrew Criddle
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:20 AM   #150
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Presumably the manuscript was (despite its dissimilarities) the closest in handwriting to the Mar Saba manuscript among those available to Dr Skouvaras.

I don't think we have evidence to say how rare such a handweriting style was
I'm sure Dr Skouvaras has seen hundreds if not thousands of 18c manuscripts. And yet he flagged this particular manuscript as bearing unusual similarities with our Mar Saba manuscript.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
although it would seem unilkely to have been unique.

Even if it should be very rare, I'm not clear that showing that the handwriting of the Mar Saba manuscript presents features not fully found in any other surviving text and partially present in one surviving manuscript only (a manuscript written far from Mar Saba), would really support authenticity.
There's no question that the Skouvaras MS does support the authenticity of our Mar Saba MS at least to some extent. If you don't see this, this would only indicate some sort of a bias on your part.

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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
You do seem to be accepting that the Mar Saba manuscipt is written in a strikingly different hand from that found for other texts at Mar Saba;
No, I don't accept this. We simply don't have enough evidence at this point to make a firm judgement on this matter.

While Carlson does include in his book some photo samples of other 18c MSS at Mar Saba, he never explains why he chose these particular samples. If he chose them because they were dissimilar to the SecMk Mar Saba MS, there's no wonder that they will look dissimilar.

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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
without IMO recognising the problems this poses for authenticity.

Andrew Criddle
I can't see how this question can pose any problems for authenticity.

Even if our Mar Saba manuscript _is_ written in a strikingly different hand from those found in the other texts at Mar Saba, this will still pose no real problems for authenticity.

Just another red herring thrown out by Carlson, that's all.

Yours,

Yuri.
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