Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Minimalist · 07-07-2008, 02:06 PM

For anyone who still cares...Bibilical Archaeology Review published this story earlier this year.

http://bib-arch.org/archive.asp?PubID=B ... extraID=14

It is almost starting to seem as if someone tried to keep this story quiet.

Toto · 07-07-2008, 02:12 PM

Do you mean A New Dead Sea Scroll in Stone? Bible-like Prophecy Was Mounted in a Wall 2,000 Years Ago by Ada Yardeni?

I don't notice anyone trying to keep this quiet. It seems to be popping up everywhere.

Toto · 07-07-2008, 02:36 PM

Time magazine: Was Jesus' Resurrection a Sequel?

Quote:

this could mean that Jesus' followers had access to a well-established paradigm when they decreed that Christ himself rose on the third day — and it might even hint that they they could have applied it in their grief after their master was crucified. However, such a contentious reading of the 87-line tablet depends on creative interpretation of a smudged passage, making it the latest entry in the woulda/coulda/shoulda category of possible New Testament artifacts; they are useful to prove less-spectacular points and to stir discussion on the big ones, but probably not to settle them nor shake anyone's faith.

. . . one of the strongest literary arguments employed by Christians over centuries to support the historicity of the Resurrection (in which they believe on faith): the specificity and novelty of the idea that the Messiah would die on a Friday and rise on a Sunday. Who could make such stuff up? But, as Knohl told TIME, maybe the Christians had a model to work from. The idea of a "dying and rising messiah appears in some Jewish texts, but until now, everyone thought that was the impact of Christianity on Judaism," he says. "But for the first time, we have proof that it was the other way around. The concept was there before Jesus." If so, he goes on, "this should shake our basic view of Christianity. ... What happens in the New Testament [could have been] adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story."

Is that indeed one of the strongest arguments for the historicity of the Resurrection? That Christians were too simple and unimaginative to make stuff up?

Minimalist · 07-07-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Do you mean A New Dead Sea Scroll in Stone? Bible-like Prophecy Was Mounted in a Wall 2,000 Years Ago by Ada Yardeni?

I don't notice anyone trying to keep this quiet. It seems to be popping up everywhere.

Now. BAR's story dates from January, 2008 and did not ignite the firestorm that the NY Times article did. I suppose it is another example of how press coverage can turn a routine murder (Lacey Peterson?) into the "Crime of the Century."

Since the Times' story hit, this thing is all over the place.

Malachi151 · 07-07-2008, 05:19 PM

Well, I'd say that if the evidence is real then it certainly supports the model I've put forward of the Jesus story having emerged from a progression of Jewish messianic and apocalyptic traditions.

Basically a whole chapter of my book is dedicated to the materials prior to the Jesus story that contain elements of the Jesus story. This would, if true, just be one more piece of the pie.

Dave31 · 07-07-2008, 06:59 PM

I thought some here might appreciate this quote from a book from 1999 in regards to "Simon Magus."

Quote:

"...These Antiochan Gnostic-Christians were followers of "Simon the Magus," who was impugned as the "heresiarch" or originator of all Christian heresies. Yet, this Simon Magus appears to have been a mythical character derived from two mystical entries, Saman and Maga, esteemed by the Syrians prior to the Christian era. This religion could be called Syro-samaritan Gnostic Christianity. Syro-Judeo-Gnosticism, on the other hand, was originally a Jewish heresy, starting with Mandaeanism, a highly astrological ideology dating to the fourth century BCE that tried to bridge between Judaism and Zoroastrianism and that was very influential on Christianity. The Gnostic tree of thought thus had many branches, such that it was not uniform and was colored by the variety of cultures and places in which it appeared, a development that created competition. Pagels says, "these so-called gnostics, then, did not share a single ideology or belong to a specific group; not all, in fact, were Christians." Indeed, the various Gnostic "Christian" texts from Chenoboskion were found in non-Christian, Pagan tombs. Thus, we find in the ancient world Syrian or Samaritan Gnosticism, Jewish Gnosticism, Christian Gnosticism and Pagan Gnosticism.

Yet, as stated, Gnosticism was eclectic, gathering together virtually all religious and cultic ideologies of the time, and constituting a combination of "The philosophies of Plato and Philo, the Avesta and the Kabbala, the mysteries of Samothrace, Eleusis and of Orphism." Buddhism and Osirianism were major influences as well. The Gnostic texts were multinational, using terms from the Hebrew, Persian, Greek, Syriac/Aramaic, Sanskrit and Egyptian languages."

-- "Christ Conspiracy (or via: amazon.co.uk)" 59

mens_sana · 07-07-2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Well, I'd say that if the evidence is real then it certainly supports the model I've put forward of the Jesus story having emerged from a progression of Jewish messianic and apocalyptic traditions.

What is the evidence? The stone is real. The writing has been dated by two experienced epigraphers. The lacunae are obvious. It is the reconstruction of some almost completely illegible characters and the subsequent interpretation that is questionable.

Malachi151 · 07-08-2008, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens_sana

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Well, I'd say that if the evidence is real then it certainly supports the model I've put forward of the Jesus story having emerged from a progression of Jewish messianic and apocalyptic traditions.

What is the evidence? The stone is real. The writing has been dated by two experienced epigraphers. The lacunae are obvious. It is the reconstruction of some almost completely illegible characters and the subsequent interpretation that is questionable.

That's what I meant. If the interpretation is accurate....

andrewcriddle · 07-08-2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens_sana

What is the evidence? The stone is real. The writing has been dated by two experienced epigraphers. The lacunae are obvious. It is the reconstruction of some almost completely illegible characters and the subsequent interpretation that is questionable.

That's what I meant. If the interpretation is accurate....

It may be a big If.

I'm a little surprised that so much of the material in this thread has been about the implications if Knohl is right, with relatively little about the problems with Knohl's reconstruction.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 07-08-2008, 12:33 PM

Cosmic Log: MESSIANIC MESSAGE STIRS DEBATE looks like a thorough review of the evidence.

Quote:

Update for 10 p.m. ET July 7: For what it's worth, in today's AFP report on the tablet, Knohl is quoted as saying the text could "overturn the vision we have of the historic personality of Jesus." I suspect many of the commenters would contest that claim. An unnamed Israel archaeologist, meanwhile, is quoted as saying, "It's very strange that such a text was written in ink on a tablet and was preserved until now. To determine whether it is authentic one would have to know in which condition and exactly where the tablet was discovered, which we do not."

But this is surely going a little beyond the evidence?

Dead Sea tablet 'casts doubt on death and resurrection of Jesus'

Quote:

Several attendees in the conference said that there was too much speculation in Knohl’s work and suggested he was using the tablet to reinforce a theory that he already presented in his 2002 book, "The Messiah before Jesus".

Moshe Bar-Asher, president of the Israeli Academy of Hebrew Language, said that he would publish his own paper on the tablet in coming months that took into account possible variations in the text.

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07-07-2008, 02:06 PM	#21
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	For anyone who still cares...Bibilical Archaeology Review published this story earlier this year. http://bib-arch.org/archive.asp?PubID=B ... extraID=14 It is almost starting to seem as if someone tried to keep this story quiet.

07-07-2008, 02:12 PM	#22
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Do you mean A New Dead Sea Scroll in Stone? Bible-like Prophecy Was Mounted in a Wall 2,000 Years Ago by Ada Yardeni? I don't notice anyone trying to keep this quiet. It seems to be popping up everywhere.

07-07-2008, 05:19 PM	#25
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Well, I'd say that if the evidence is real then it certainly supports the model I've put forward of the Jesus story having emerged from a progression of Jewish messianic and apocalyptic traditions. Basically a whole chapter of my book is dedicated to the materials prior to the Jesus story that contain elements of the Jesus story. This would, if true, just be one more piece of the pie.

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