Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rlogan · 02-19-2005, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_the_Freethinker

This argument goes like this: Antiquity scholar A. N. Sherwin-White has shown, using Herodotus, that legends should take more than 2 generations to fully over-take core historical facts (to the point of completely shrouding history in legend). Apologists then argue that since there was only 1-2 generations between the events in the gospels and their composition, there was no time for legends to have developed. Ergo, the gospels cannot be legendary or contain legendary embellishments.

Exactly so.

It is fortunate that we have such unassailable test criteria. Otherwise, we'd be forced into making inferences based on shoddy methodology such as the physical impossibility of the events contained in the narrative.

andrewcriddle · 02-19-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_the_Freethinker

You know, I just thought of something. If S-W is still alive, perhaps we can write a letter to him about his statements on legend. We can even ask him if he endorses the way he has been used to discredit legends in the New Testament. That would be egg on the face of apologists like Craig and Habermas who are very fond of appealing to him. (I'm willing to write the letter if he is still alive and available for comment!)

Matthew

I'm afraid Sherwin-White died in November 1993
http://www.ox.ac.uk/gazette/backissu...130194/all.txt

Andrew Criddle

Steven Carr · 02-19-2005, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

It is fortunate that we have such unassailable test criteria. Otherwise, we'd be forced into making inferences based on shoddy methodology such as the physical impossibility of the events contained in the narrative.

And we would have to throw out the seemingly legendary story of Joseph Smith being helped in his translation of the Golden Plates containing the Book of Mormon.

Toto · 02-19-2005, 01:06 PM

Ronald Hutton' 'Witches Druids and King Arthur' is searchable on Amazon

Goody and Watts 'The Consequences of Literacy' in Goody (ed) 'Literacy in Traditional Societies' CUP 1968

Jan Vansina 'Oral Tradition as History' 2nd ed London 1985 pp 184-200 Searchable on Amazon

David P Henige 'The Chronology of Oral Tradition: Quest for a chimera' OUP 1974 (other books by Henige are more affordable and available)

Rosalind Thomas 'Oral Tradition and Written Record in Classical Athens' CUP 1989. searchable on Amazon

Of possible intererest: www.oraltradition.org

It's all interesting to those of us who enjoy folklore, but seems to obscure the main point. We don't really know exactly when the gospels were written, we don't know if they even attempted to describe a history passed down through oral tradition, or if they started as an allegorical historical novel that sprang full blown from the brow of "Mark".

Jedi Mind Trick · 02-19-2005, 05:15 PM

Praise to "the King?"

The man wasn't even cold before all kinds of weird stuff was being said about him... Gee, I wonder... if Elvis would have had 40 years, a national/cultural destruction like 70CE, his "message" spread to others who didn't know the context of his "greatness," would he be coming back in the clouds with sideburns, Guitar and a shaking pelvis?

Thank you... Thank you very much.

:wave:

Jedi Mind Trick · 02-19-2005, 05:17 PM

Elvis has left the building!
:wave:

gurugeorge · 02-20-2005, 01:33 PM

I think the dilemma is inescapable.

If he was such an amazing guy and made such a big stir that people immediately thought of him as divine, the fact that there's no indisputable corroborative evidence of his existence outside Christian sources is a big, big problem.

OTOH, if he was more of an ordinary preacher, it's hard to see why he would have been divinised quite so quickly.

Lafcadio · 02-20-2005, 11:50 PM

Matt, Herodotus is one of the greatest liars history ever met.
A lot our ancient and even early medieval history knowledge is based on unchecked and unreliable chronicles and is regarded as possibly true hypothesis until the evidence show the contrary.

02-19-2005, 05:15 PM	#25
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	What about Elvis? Praise to "the King?" The man wasn't even cold before all kinds of weird stuff was being said about him... Gee, I wonder... if Elvis would have had 40 years, a national/cultural destruction like 70CE, his "message" spread to others who didn't know the context of his "greatness," would he be coming back in the clouds with sideburns, Guitar and a shaking pelvis? Thank you... Thank you very much. :wave:

02-19-2005, 05:17 PM	#26
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	This one is good! Elvis has left the building! :wave:

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02-19-2005, 01:06 PM	#24
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Ronald Hutton' 'Witches Druids and King Arthur' is searchable on Amazon Goody and Watts 'The Consequences of Literacy' in Goody (ed) 'Literacy in Traditional Societies' CUP 1968 Jan Vansina 'Oral Tradition as History' 2nd ed London 1985 pp 184-200 Searchable on Amazon David P Henige 'The Chronology of Oral Tradition: Quest for a chimera' OUP 1974 (other books by Henige are more affordable and available) Rosalind Thomas 'Oral Tradition and Written Record in Classical Athens' CUP 1989. searchable on Amazon Of possible intererest: www.oraltradition.org It's all interesting to those of us who enjoy folklore, but seems to obscure the main point. We don't really know exactly when the gospels were written, we don't know if they even attempted to describe a history passed down through oral tradition, or if they started as an allegorical historical novel that sprang full blown from the brow of "Mark".

02-20-2005, 01:33 PM	#27
gurugeorge Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,210	I think the dilemma is inescapable. If he was such an amazing guy and made such a big stir that people immediately thought of him as divine, the fact that there's no indisputable corroborative evidence of his existence outside Christian sources is a big, big problem. OTOH, if he was more of an ordinary preacher, it's hard to see why he would have been divinised quite so quickly.

02-20-2005, 11:50 PM	#28
Lafcadio Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Romania Posts: 453	Matt, Herodotus is one of the greatest liars history ever met. A lot our ancient and even early medieval history knowledge is based on unchecked and unreliable chronicles and is regarded as possibly true hypothesis until the evidence show the contrary.

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