Ben C Smith

They certainly can be.

In this case, are 1 Timothy and 2 Peter good evidence of what the apostles Paul and Peter thought about inspiration? No. But are they good evidence of what some early Christians a generation or so later thought? Yes. Of course.

Ben.

aa5874

So, how do you know it was Christians who did the forgery? And how do you know what were their true thoughts?

I think it is possible that some people may claim to be Christians when they are not.

sschlichter

A) I do not beleive that they are forged.
B) it is a moot point if you look at the question I was answering.
C) I am not suggesting there is any evidence to be had. I do not think any document claiming to be inspired (forged or not) is going to provide any evidence as to whether it is inspired or not unless you can verify it with something else known to be inspired.

Sheshbazzar

They may serve as evidence of what some early Christians thought, (or were perhaps attempting to persuade others with differing ideas to accept) that "some" however remains a loaded proposition, just how many is "some"? Ninety percent? fifty percent? one in ten? one in a hundred? one in a thousand?
Certainly these forgeries and their supporters eventually prevailed, but that fact cannot be taken to constitute any sort of blanket endorsement by a contemporary majority, indeed it is quite possible that the majority of contemporary believers never read or even heard of these fabricated epistles, then again perhaps the majority at that time knew them to be fraudulent and rejected them.
Their mere survival, and their acceptance by the latter "Catholic" churches, is not any guarantee of any genuineness or of any acceptance by a majority of the earlier believers.

Sheshbazzar

That leaves nothing, because there are NO religious writings that can in any way, be conclusively proven and known to be "inspired".
"Inspiration" is only a theological "claim" not a demonstrable fact.
Non-believers reject that theological claim,

sschlichter

or perhaps the contemporary critical majority is wrong about how early ecclesiastical organization existed and prematurely flagged Timothy as a forgery.

Amaleq13

With no connection to the angel or the information they had just received?

The women are joyful and afraid because they are leaving? :rolling:

There is nothing plausible about such a ridiculous reading of the passage.

sschlichter

yep, that leaves no document that can prove to someone that does not beleive in God that it is inspired by God.

Amaleq13

Apparently, you [don't] know what ad hominem means. Those comments are the exact opposite from an "ad hom" since they are not "against the man" but specifically and explicitly aimed at the "arguments".

An actual "ad hom" would say nothing about your arguments and focus on you as a person.

Ben C Smith

Glad to see we agree.

In this case, at least two. (But probably more than that, unless we are to imagine that the only two Christians who held such views happened to write them down, and their writings happened to survive for us.)

Fortunately, some is a word vague enough not to pin me down to a specific number or proportion. If it were not so vague, I would not have used it.

Ben.