Chili

Isn't that kind of saying that London fog grows on people too?

outhouse

Op why do you ignore that Israelites factually evolved from displaced and disbanded Canaanites ?

Why do you ignore much of what is written the OT is influence more so from Mesopotamia after the Babylonian exile?

spin

The first part of my last sentence is factually wrong. The cartouche of the pharaoh Shoshenq I features a glyph

which is used to represent "sh" in this name, as also in Shebitku. And the glyph

is used for the syllable "sheps", as in the name Hatshepsut and Shepseskaf. There is indeed a "sh" in Egyptian, just not in the name Amenemnisu, which was the issue discussed.

ralfellis

Not ignored entirely, its just a difficult topic that has very little evidence to deduce a considered opinion. I go with theologian Adam Clarke, who says that the Phoenicians and the Canaanites are the same people:

The Canaanites and Phoenicians have been often confounded. This is frequently the case in the Septuagint. Compare Ge 46:10, with Ex 6:15, where the same person is called a Phoenician in the one place, and a Canaanite in the other. See also the same version in Ex 16:35; Jos 5:12.

But one of my speculations is that the Phoenicians were the remnants of the exiled Minoans, and thus your speculation suggests that the Israelites were not simply Canaanite, but also 'Minoan'. So were they?

Yes, but only in part.

When Thera blew its top in 1600 BC, and started the entire biblical Exodus saga, a considerable number of Therans and Minoans washed up on the shores of the Nile Delta and built a large Minoan palace there - see the archaeology of Manfried Bietak. This was just before the Hyksos Exodus, around 1590 or 1600 BC.

But if the Hyksos Exodus was the Israelite Exodus, then a number of those who were expelled on the Exodus were actually these same Theran and Minoan (i.e.: Canaanite) exiles. So was this segment of the Hyksos-Israelite Exodus population influential in later history, or not?

Well, the Minoans were bull-worshippers, which might explain a lot about the Exodus story. And I think it is indisputable that in later years Pharaoh Akhenaton was influenced by Minoan artistry. And the date-palm became closely associated with these people too.

But I don't think that all the Israelites were Canaanite-Minoan, by any means.





Because I think Babylonian influence was secondary - not only for the israelites, after the Babylonian Exile, but also in general in relation to Egypt.

Take the Sumerian Ishtar, for instance - an archetypal Sumerian goddess. But she was not Sumerian at all, she is Egyptian. The true progression here is:- Ast (Isis), Astarte, Astoreth, Ishtar ... and thence to Aphrodite and Venus. But the cult originated in Egypt.


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outhouse

In many places they were, the difference is when the Canaanite civilization collapsed, some of its sea people probably did migrate to the highlands and become proto Israelites, but the rest evolved into their own Phoenician culture and carried on for hundreds of years. All seperate from the evolving Israelite culture.


Real sources please


No

Not in any sense.

We have no cultural markers of the Minoans.

But we do have a Cannanite pantheon of deities, but not numerous.

I might add that there are no Egyptian deities from this early period after 1200 BCE


Nonsense.

Please provide credibe sources.

It was not. There was no exodus of any kind for any Israelite. It was a literary creation.

No

Right now as it stands there is no Hyksos-Israelite connection.


Many culture were Bull worshippers. There is no connectin there.


Factually bull worship goes to El which predates the Minoans and gos back to Mesopotamian cultures.


There is no evidence of any kind at all for a Minoan Israelite connection.


I would agree that not of what would become proto Israelites were Canaanite, but they were the majority.

There may be semetic nomadic trans Jordan tribes that were in and out of Egypt, but they would have been the vast minority.


The question isnt as much "if" as when. You need to supply exact dates for this to begin to try and piece any part of a puzzle together. generic statements like that are not valuable in this discussion.

yet we see no Egyptian foundations in Isrealite mythology, only minor influnece compare to the majority of Mesopotamian influence in their mythology.

We also have some pretty good track records for much of the mythologies historical cores, as in why and where it originated. Its not coming from Egypt.


Sources please.

Bceause the same deity evolved down to Israelites as Asherah, who was not the Egyptian deity by any means.

This was a deity concept used for thousands of years all through the Levant by many people. Even if it was originally Egyptian, it had evolved away from the Egyptian version, by the time Israelites used it, the mythologies had changed.

ralfellis

THE HYKSOS PHARAOHS .......................... THE ISRAELITES
They were known as shepherds. ............... They were known as shepherds.
They wore earrings and curly side-locks ..... They wore earrings and curly side-locks
One of their kings was called Jacoba.......... One of their leaders was called Jacob.
They were involved in a war with ............. They were involved in a war with
......... the Theban Egyptians. ..........................................the Egyptians.
There were storms and darkness. ............. There were storms and darkness (plagues).
There was an ashfall. .............................. There was an ashfall.
There was a tsunami. .............................. There was a tsunami.
Some 500,000 were ejected from Egypt ..... Some 500,000 were ejected from Egypt
......... on a great exodus. .................................................. . on a great exodus.
They set off from Pi Ramesse (Avaris) ........ They set off from Pi Ramesse.
They travelled to Jerusalem. ..................... They travelled to Jerusalem.
They destroyed Jericho .............................. They destroyed Jericho.


Notice any similarities? Of course you do.

The storms and darkness is noted on the Tempest stele. The ashfall and tsunami are mentioned in Exodus.





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outhouse

Poor work my friend, very poor.

First you are forced to ignore my last reply, and only add more false assertions.

You have given 20 examples of which most can be argued away, and even if we did give you these, [no one will] there are thousands of differences between them to the point thare were never simular in any way shape or form.



Your using Josephus mistranslation of hyksos as "shepard" when it is a known false translation. Ruler's of foreign countries, is the proper translation.

Your busted there, and now I question your whole ability to percieve history.



Proto Isrealites who at this time still ressembled Canaanites "Israel was laid to waist and his seed is no more" Israelites formed after this destruction in roughy 1209 BC.

Shishak isnt much of a connection either since many cultures were always at war.

No 500,000 were ejected, more poor work. The ruling elite were ejected. But the common man was not. Please do your homework. It does not indicate a mass expulsion of the lower classes.


The Israelite version of the Exodus is a literary creation, hundreds and hundreds of years after their formation.


Sources for the Hyksos traveling to Jerusalem, by the way, probably hundreds of different people traveled to Jerusalem.

To date, there is no real Hyksos connection to Israelite's other then the geographic influence we expect

ralfellis

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Since Hyka Khasut is spelt with the "shepherd's crook" glyph, I am inclined to believe Manetho rather than you. Egyptian was still a spoken language in his day, so it is likely that Manetho knew rather more than you.




Busted flush? Looks more like four kings to me.
(Hyksos-Israelite kings, of course....)






Yes, but if you read Manetho he relates two Exoduses from Egypt. The Great Hyksos Exodus (c. 1570 BC) and the minor Exodus of Lepers and Maimed Priests (c. 1300 BC).

The Torah has conflated these two exoduses.




Manetho, via Josephus says:

These kings whom I have enumerated above, and their descendants, ruling over the so‑called Shepherds, dominated Egypt, according to Manetho, for 511 years ...... On these terms the Shepherds, with their possessions and households complete, no fewer than 240,000 persons, left Egypt and journeyed over the desert into Syria. There, dreading the power of the Assyrians who were at that time masters of Asia, they built in the land now called Judaea a city large enough to hold all those thousands of people, and gave it the name of Jerusalem.


Are you saying that there were 250,000 ruling elite among the Hyksos? Why not just admit that you were wrong - the Hyksos and the Israelites are the same people.



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outhouse

Mantheo was describing events 1300 year in his past. We know more about the cultural anthropology of ancient Egypt then he did.

There is no evidence for this.

There is no evidence for this at all. Nor is it followed by mainstream scholarships.

Israelites factually evolved from Canaanites. This isnt up for debate.



There is no evidence for this. Not only that, the highlands of Israel FACTUALLY slowly grew, and these people were factually displaced Canaanites.

There is no evidence in Israel ANYWHERE when a exodus of people had settled there. The amount of people your talking about would leave evidence. And there is none.

outhouse

Your not dealing with me, your opposing Israels head archeologist Israel Finklestein.

Josephus translation of Mantheo has always been in question.