lmbarre

How many mythicists are atheists? What a surprise. Rightly named, I submit that this unholy alliance amounts to nothing more than an irrational, emotionally charged, Jesus denial, posing as objective historical research. In kind, it is no different from Evangelical apologetics.

Huon

Except from the holy conclusions...

Toto

How do you show that theological documents are relevant to history?

Not all mythicists do this, of course, but in secular history, the burden is on the proponents of historicity to show that the documents can be used as historical. You have skipped over that step.

And the author of that site, who used to moderate this forum, has been on and off again sympathetic to mythicism.

You are posting at the end of an overly long thread. There have been other threads devoted to the issues of whether Paul wrote those passages and what they mean. If you want to pursue this, please find one of them or start a new thread. The issue is not as clear as you claim.

You are grossly overstating your case here.

There are no sources that appear to be independent of Christian claims. Again, this is an issue that has been thoroughly discussed on this forum in other threads. The mention if Jesus' crucifixion in the Testimonium of Josephus is probably a Christian interpolation, or relies on second hand reports from Christians; the reference in Tacitus appears to be based on Christian reports, if not a later interpolation.

There is nothing there. If there were a remotely credible contemporary source for Jesus' crucifixion, there would be no debate.

No - the evidence is too equivocal.

Toto

I don't know of any statistics, but not all mythicists are atheists, and not all atheists are mythicists. Look up Tom Harpur. Tell me what religion Freke and Gandy are, or the religious stance of Diane Murdock.

I submit that you have set up a straw man and knocked him down.

But worse, your posts in this thread are boring. They rehash of stuff that has been posted here and refuted over the past decade. Please get yourself up to speed.

aa5874

I have actually shown that that so-called Chriistian writings matter for the last six years.

It is HJers who REJECT Christian literature and DISCREDIT it. HJers are Wrong-Headed. They discount that Christians of the Jesus cult argued that Jesus was born AFTER his mother was PREGNANT by a Ghost.

Matthew 1:18 CEB HJers ought NOT to discount Matthew 1.18, Luke 1.26-35, John 1, Mark 6.48, Mark 9.2, Mark 16.6, Acts 1.9, Acts 2, Galatians 1 and 1 Cor. 15.

You don't know what you are talking about. MJers cannot reject the very evidence that actually describe Jesus as a Myth.

HJers REJECT and Discredit the story of Jesus in the NT .

1. HJers REJECT conception and birth of Jesus.

2. HJers REJECT that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

3. HJers REJECT the Holy Ghost Bird and the voice from heaven at the Baptism.

4. HJers REJECT the Temptation of Jesus when the Devil placed Jesus on the Pinnacle of the Temple.

5. HJers REJECT the miracles of Jesus when he Instantly healed the blind, deaf, and dumb and raised the dead.

6. HJers REJECT the claim that Jesus killed a fig tree by a curse.

7. HJers REJECT the claim that Jesus calmed a storm by mere words.

8. HJers REJECT the walking on the sea by Jesus.

9. HJers REJECT the Transfiguration.

10. HJers REJECT the Resurrection.

11. HJers REJECT the claim that Jesus ate food after the resurrection

12. HJers REJECT the claim that the resurrected Jesus commissioned the disciples.

13. HJers REJECT the Ascension.

The very HJ argument MUST show that Chritian literature is filled with discrepancies, contradictions and accounts of Jesus that most likely did NOT happen. See Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman.

Again, you are ill-informed.

You spout "Flat Earth" theories.

The Pauline Jesus was REVEALED--NOT REAL--please just go and read Galatians.

Paul immediately Consulted with GHOSTS when Jesus was revealed. See Galatians 1

You appear to have very liitle or an extreme limited understanding of Apologetic writings.

Lesson 1--The NT is acompilation of Myth Fables and it is corroborated by Apologetics of antiquity.

1. The author of gMark claimed Jesus walked on water, transfigured and resurrected.

2. The author of gMatthew claimed Jesus was born of a Ghost.

3. The author of gLuke claimed Jesus was born of a Ghost.

4. The author of gJohn claimed Jesus was God the Creator.

5. The Pauline writer claimed Jesus was the First born of the dead.

6. Ignatius claimed Jesus was the Son of a Ghost.

7. Justin Martyr claimed Jesus was the Son of a Ghost.

8. Irenaeus claimed Jesus was the Son of a Ghost.

9. Tertullian claimed Jesus was the Son of a Ghost.

10. Origen claimed Jesus was the Son of a Ghost.

MJers do not REJECT the actual evidence in Christian Literature that Jesus of the NT was a Myth Fable.

Sheshbazzar

And let's not forget, that according to 'Paul's' writings, The only recorded contact or conversation he ever held with his Jeezuz, was one with a disembodied voice.

Do HJer's -who claim they don't believe in miracles-, and that such stuff was added on latter, discount 'Paul's' claimed miraculous experience ?

And if they do, how can they accept 'Paul's' testimony, -when Paul's admitted only contact with Jeezuz, was by way of -the miracle- of communicating with a -invisible- living dead zombie's ghost,- as being a valid source of information about any HJ Jeezuz ?

Those that accept 'testimony' from a source like this are as loony as the one that gives it. They might as well go interview Charlie Manson and get their latest update on Jeezus.

aa5874

Why do some atheist accept the Pauline writings when he clearly only claimed to know of Jesus because of Revelations from GOD.

Do Atheists believe in Paul's God??? This is extremely strange.

Why do some Atheist accept Paul's claims about God and do so WITHOUT corroboration???

Does God Exist ONLY FOR Paul??

It must not be forgotten that the Pauline writer claimed he IMMEDIATELY CONSULTED with some kind of GHOSTS [no flesh--no blood entities] when his Jesus was REVEALED to him by God.

Galatians 1 The Pauline writer got his knowledge of Jesus from entities that Atheists consider to be Myths--[God and entities without flesh and blood]

The Pauline writer is a WITNESS of Myth Jesus.

aa5874

The Pauline writings are EXTREMELY clear.

The Resurrection of Jesus is ultimately the Foundation of Salvation.

The Pauline writer is actually claiming to be a WITNESS of the Resurrected Jesus.

Thousands of Jews have been crucified and Many have claimed to perform Miracles but they all DIED.

The Pauline Jesus was different.

The Pauline Jesus ACTUALLY Resurrected on the Third Day according to the Scriptures and Paul and OVER 500 people SAW him.

The fantastic claims about the Miracles of Jesus and his supposed suffering would be completely meaningless if he did NOT Resurrect.

That is PRECISELY why the Pauline claimed Jesus was indeed the Son of God AFTER he was Raised from the dead.

The Resurrection was the 'Acid Test'.

If Jesus did NOT resurrect after crucifixion then he was a man.

If Jesus resurrected then he was the Son of God.


1 Corinthians 15:15 KJV---Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up , if so be that the dead rise not.


Romans 10:9 KJV---That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved .

Galatians 1:1 KJV---Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

Ephesians 1:20 KJV---Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Colossians 2:12 KJV---Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 KJV---And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come .

Philippians 3:10 KJV---That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death.

The Pauline writer TESTIFIED to the Churches that God Raised Jesus from the dead.

The Pauline knew that there MUST be witnesses of the Resurrection of Jesus or else the Gospel would be worthless.

The Pauline writer is the DOCUMENTED FALSE Witness of the Resurrection.

The Christian Faith is based on the DOCUMENTED FALSE WITNESS of the Pauline writer.

1 Cor. 15 The Pauline writer is a DOCUMENTED FALSE WITNESS of the Resurrection in the very Canon of the Church.

TedM

If you are referring to Galatians, it could be interpreted as a revelation through Scripture, without a voice or material contact. He does imply that he saw Jesus in 1 Cor though, but doesn't say how so--could have been a dream or hallucination, or even a spiritual eye-opening..

You appear to be referring to the account in Acts, which was not written by Paul.

TedM

None of this hurts the HJ theory aa. You just want to make it appear to do so. What you aren't talking about is the widespread agreement by those same people that Jesus was physically born through Mary -- a human being, and his life on earth. These all provide support for the belief that Jesus certainly had been a human being in appearance, at least. It is no large step for an HJr to simply say that since the supernatural is unlikely, he most likely had had an earthly father just as he had an earthly mother. You obsessively discuss this 'Ghost' story as if it means something. It means something to Christians, but is just a story to the HJrs.