Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 03-15-2007, 02:43 PM

An interesting interview with the Bishop of Durham NT Wright

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/progra...m_wright.shtml

'But for the Ancient Jew, heaven is not another place within our cosmos - upstairs somewhere. Heaven is another dimension of present reality, so that for instance if you went to the temple it wasn't as if you were in heaven. They really believed you were in heaven because the temple was the place within our geography which overlaps with God's geography, as it were.'

I wonder why early Christians decided that the Greek word for 'sky' was the word that they were going to use for their concept of Heaven.

In reality, Wright cannot sell the Biblical story of the Ascension even to himself, let alone the general public, so the Bible can't mean what it says.

Although it is hard to decipher the gobbledegook Wright use when he describes an omipresent being as having a geography.

Sheshbazzar · 03-17-2007, 07:58 PM

The Book of Revelations does seem to indicate that some ancients viewed "heaven" as being a place/dimension other than just the "sky" up above, or the universe/cosmos "out there", that is (presently) visible to the human eye.

Quote:

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven........................

15. And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18. And the building of the wall of it was [of] jasper: and the city [was] pure gold, like unto clear glass.

Note that "Holy Jerusalem", "descending out of heaven", implies that it, the Heavenly abode, is to become visible and approach, descending down from the "sky"/visible heavens above.
The measurements provided would imply the writer was indicating that in his view, the ultimate "Heaven" to come, would be physical, and physically occupy a very large and actual physical/dimensional existence within reality.
The text does not indicate that this "Holy City" ever lands upon, or occupies any land area or space on this present and visible earth. (see also 21:1)
Or the "new earth".

Certainly, John the Revelators view was more complex than that "heaven" was simply the "sky".

Steven Carr · 03-18-2007, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Note that "Holy Jerusalem", "descending out of heaven", implies that it, the Heavenly abode, is to become visible and approach, descending down from the "sky"/visible heavens above.

Certainly, John the Revelators view was more complex than that "heaven" was simply the "sky".

Of course.

Heaven was above the sky that you can see.

Sheshbazzar · 03-18-2007, 05:53 PM

"Holy Jerusalem" as a physical and three dimensional "HEAVEN" (The "abode"-the dwelling place)......." descending OUT of heaven".
Thus that "heaven" that is "above the sky that you can see", would needs remain above the sky that you can see, as that place from which a physical and three dimensional [12000x12000x12000] "Heaven" would separate from and descend "out" of.

The Greek "ek", "OUT", is a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative.
Heaven would therefore remain above the sky, and "Holy Jerusalem" the ultimate "Heaven" and Heavenly abode would descend and come down "OUT of heaven".
The "heaven" beyond the sky being the point from which the motion of the "foursquare city" proceeds, If the point of origin -"heaven"- were moved earthward along with "Holy Jerusalem", then "Holy Jerusalem would not move, have motion, nor descend at all with respect to that point of origin.

Thus two distinct heavens are implied by the description, "heaven", that great void of the ether above the sky, that contains the entire universe- immeasurable in extent.
And a far smaller "Heaven", New Jerusalem, that is only a little, tiny, 12000 furlongs in length, breadth, and height, decending out of the former.

03-15-2007, 02:43 PM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	NT Wright says the disciples believed Heaven was in the Temple An interesting interview with the Bishop of Durham NT Wright http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/progra...m_wright.shtml 'But for the Ancient Jew, heaven is not another place within our cosmos - upstairs somewhere. Heaven is another dimension of present reality, so that for instance if you went to the temple it wasn't as if you were in heaven. They really believed you were in heaven because the temple was the place within our geography which overlaps with God's geography, as it were.' I wonder why early Christians decided that the Greek word for 'sky' was the word that they were going to use for their concept of Heaven. In reality, Wright cannot sell the Biblical story of the Ascension even to himself, let alone the general public, so the Bible can't mean what it says. Although it is hard to decipher the gobbledegook Wright use when he describes an omipresent being as having a geography.

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03-18-2007, 05:53 PM	#4
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	"Holy Jerusalem" as a physical and three dimensional "HEAVEN" (The "abode"-the dwelling place)......." descending OUT of heaven". Thus that "heaven" that is "above the sky that you can see", would needs remain above the sky that you can see, as that place from which a physical and three dimensional [12000x12000x12000] "Heaven" would separate from and descend "out" of. The Greek "ek", "OUT", is a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative. Heaven would therefore remain above the sky, and "Holy Jerusalem" the ultimate "Heaven" and Heavenly abode would descend and come down "OUT of heaven". The "heaven" beyond the sky being the point from which the motion of the "foursquare city" proceeds, If the point of origin -"heaven"- were moved earthward along with "Holy Jerusalem", then "Holy Jerusalem would not move, have motion, nor descend at all with respect to that point of origin. Thus two distinct heavens are implied by the description, "heaven", that great void of the ether above the sky, that contains the entire universe- immeasurable in extent. And a far smaller "Heaven", New Jerusalem, that is only a little, tiny, 12000 furlongs in length, breadth, and height, decending out of the former.

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