Krztoff

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-Atheos
Moderator, EoG

First off, I realize this is a very, very long post, and to those of you who read it and reply, I thank you very much.

My first post when I joined mentioned that I was trying to become better at defending the positions of atheism and evolution, mostly because of an assault by my brother-in-law in an e-mail. I said I'd elaborate in another post later. This is that post.

Story: A while back my brother-in-law sent an e-mail that was a forward of a story called "Darwinism is Headed for the Compost Heap", or something like that. He told me to defend it against the earth shattering arguments that it contained. They were laughable. I refuted it as best I could, although probably not as well as it could have been. The e-mail stated that he wanted to have an ongoing debate. After my response, I waited. In fact, I waited several months. Surely that is enough time to research my arguments and come up with a reply. Still, nothing. During that time, I came accross the wonderful story of Hank, and how one ought to be kissing his ass. Remembering all of the christian themed "humor" e-mails I'd received from him, I decided that I'd share some humor of my own. That was almost a month ago. Finally, a couple days ago I remembered the whole e-mail debate thing, and I sent him an e-mail asking if he'd ever replied, thinking that maybe he had a while ago, and that my spam filter had been a bit too protective. His reply is below.

Please keep in mind, I'm putting this here rather than secular lifestyle because I put defending the truth above keeping the peace. I value family, but I value intellectual honesty, truth, and reason more. I'm not afraid of burning bridges. If need be, I'll get gasoline and a match and torch them all.

After I send a reply, I'll post it here.

I encourage everyone to play a game called "spot the fallacy". No points will be awarded for the giant neon glowing appeal to consequences. WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

I've changed the names.

Enjoy.
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***Personal comments removed ***

- First, faith in [God] is a gift from Him...but one has to at least be receptive to the idea that the possibility may exist that He Exists...
- Two, There is historical, archaeological, and supernatural proof that He (Jesus) existed. First century Jewish (not Christian) Historian Josephus (and others) mention Him, by name...There's even been speculation in recent years that these 12 guys sat around and got drunk one night and came up with this story....but let's examine that a little further...almost every last one of those 12 suffered terrible, excruciatingly painful deaths...now, if it were a "story", would they have willingly gone to those lengths to protect the lie? I think not...not to mention all the other "early Christians" who willingly died as martyrs...all for the sake of "a story?"

All of the other "religions" are set up as man reaching up to God...Only, Only, I repeat Only Christianity is God, reaching DOWN to man...Only Judaism/Christianity has so many "proofs" of it's existence...Solomon's Temple wall, Jacob's well, and others mentioned in the Old Testament...but even moreso...The Shroud of Turin (Jesus' burial cloth - which science cannot explain how the image came to be on the cloth) www.shroud.com , Juan Diego's Thilma with "Our Lady of Guadalupe"'s image on it...whereby, you can "see" the reflection of the Bishop and others in the room when Juan Diego unfurled his Thilma to give the Bishop his Roses that Mary had given to Juan Diego...not knowing that the image was there...No scientific explanation for that image...

Check out the miracle at Fatima...

*** Link provided to copyrighted description of the Miracle of Fatima ***


also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_%22...un%22#_note-16

You don't have to be able to "see" something for it to be true...You can sit there and deny til you're blue in the face that there's no such thing as radio and TV waves...you can't see them, hear them, touch them, smell them, or taste them...yet, we know they are there...as long as you are tuned into them with the "proper receptacle"...God isn't much different than that...he doesn't "force" us to believe...it is a gift...but the prize for that gift comes with an awesome ultimate prize, as well as an awesome responsibility. What you were given at birth was more valuable than the most precious gems in all the world, and you're tossing it away like a used candy wrapper....not even bothering to check into it a little to see if it's actually true...with the end result having the utmost of consequences, I guess I'd be a lot more careful and sure before "throwing away" that wrapper...You know, C.S. Lewis was a devout atheist until about age 30...

Lewis was an unwilling convert
"You may picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted for even a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In...1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England."

He, too, didn't want to acquiesce to God...he wanted to be ruler of his own "dominion"...without all those troublesome rules put upon us by "religion"...but where would we be without them....look around you..society is falling faster and faster into a cesspool of "I am my own God", you can't tell me what to do...I know what's good for me... Imagine, for a moment Christopher, where your nieces and nephews (or GOD WILLING) your own children are going to have to go through if the current trend continues... God gave us parameters for our own good...Let me give you this example and I will end this e-mail.... If you, while growing up, had an infected tooth, and your Dad took you to the dentist, to have that tooth repaired, causing you to suffer deep and excruciating pain...but saving your life tby stopping the spread of infection...wasn't that pain worth it? The same can be said for God, He is the dentist...we just have to come to Him "on a daily basis" to clear the infection...

There are literally thousands of other examples of miracles that He has given to us...unexplainable by modern science (seemingly, your God)...miracles of the Eucharist turning into human flesh; documented unexplainable healings...physically, mentally, psychologically, etc); many, many other things that are far too numerous to list here...nonetheless, there and ready to be discovered by those who have the least amount of interest before tossing aside eternal consequences...and, as far as your citing Thomas Jefferson in your "atheist" paper...he was no gift to Christianity...but then again, trying to justify a position "outside the Church" whereby you are your own Pope and you make up your own rules (as do all the protestant churches...that is why we have 30,000 different denominations of Christianity today)...it's no wonder he was confused......and, just to let you know, I can back up almost all the Church teaches, but one would have to believe in the truth of the Bible first...

***Personal comments removed ***

Astreja

Well, there is one thing that all "miracles" seem to have in common -- Lack of corroboration by scientists.

I don't really know where to begin with this... He actually thinks that the Eucharist turns into human flesh, he doesn't know about the problems with Josephus, and he hasn't been following the ongoing story of the Shroud of Turin. If he accepts all these things uncritically, and would rather accuse you of plagiarism than try to understand your remarks on Darwin, there isn't much to be said.

Spot the fallacy? Well, there was more than one ad hominem; "debbil's gonna getchoo" scare tactics; and several appeals to pity.

In fact, if I were the recipient of that e-mail, those bridges would already be on fire. Give 'im non-existent-hell, Krztoff.

Krztoff

Here is my response. I'll cut the big copy & paste section he put in. If you really want to read it again, check the first post. However, I really doubt you do.

When my fiancee read the e-mail, she cried. She was in tears. This bridge may not get burned, it may get taken out with explosive force by a mudslide.

Have I mentioned that we really want my two oldest nephews as ushers at our wedding?

================================================== ===

Dear Mark,

Here is a response, in a point by point format. I know it's a bit clunky, but I think this format is the best for responding to a message with as many points as the one you sent me.
================================================== ======
Chris,

I am going to try to do my best to keep this reply on a "Christian" level...forgive me if I fail...

#1 - Your reply to the Darwin article "appeared to be written" by someone else

It wasn’t. I assume that you mean that it appeared professional and from a knowledgeable source, I’m choosing to take that as a compliment. However, I have to admit that I find your allegation plagiarism a bit offensive. The reply was all me. I consider simple link posting or copy and paste debates to be an insult to the intelligence of both parties.

...much of what was said was so convoluted, I couldn't follow it...that may be due to my own shortcomings I admit, I don't know...but the fact that I couldn't make sense of the reply makes it pretty hard to send a rebuttal back...this was compounded by

Often times I find myself unable to understand something that I have read or heard. In almost every instance I make it my business to research the topic until I understand it, the first chance that I get. Sitting on a reply because you don’t “get it” is a poor excuse. There are plenty of sources online and in print that could have enlightened you. Also, I am more than willing to explain any part of my reply to you. If you don’t have a copy of it anymore, I could resend it.

#2 - Your (I really don't know what it was...a very poor and highly offensive attempt at humor, or a statement by you on how "enlightened" you are now that you have been "educated" at a facility of higher learning, freed from the bonds of faith and can't believe people can be stupid enough to fall into that religion crap...I don't know) email about "Fred". I noticed, Christopher, that you sent that to me, Mom, Vanessa and (one of my co-workers??? - what was that all about?). So, tell me...what was the point of the Fred e-mail? Did you honestly think I would find humor in something so offensive?? (I was literally devastated for several days and when I showed it to your oldest Sister, she was mortified by it and was moved to tears on your behalf)...you know, if you want a serious confrontation or falling out over this, we can certainly have one...

It was a simple humorous e-mail. Not unlike the many “humorous” e-mails that I have received from you, as well as many others that portray Christianity in a positive light. They joke as to how obvious it is that your god is real, and it implies that those who fail to believe must be missing something obvious. If you think that those kinds of e-mails aren’t offensive to some atheists, you are very much mistaken. I don’t see how it’s okay for Christians to make jokes about how right they are and how wrong atheists if the reverse isn’t also true. As for the e-mail to your co-worker, they apparently got my e-mail from a mass mailing you sent to me and to them and bulk added to their contact list. If I recall correctly, they proceeded to send me a "poor attempt at humor" based on christianity. I simply returned the favor. It's good for people to know how it feels to be on the receiving end of such humor.

Now, I've never, ever felt a deep Faith in you when I was your sponsor for confirmation...it was something you were just supposed to do (a right of passage, per se)..but I followed through on it and "hoped for the best..." Well, I failed...most especially, I failed YOU!!!

Actually, I didn’t see it as a rite of passage. I saw it as a necessary step for college funding. Kind of like a FAFSA application. I would rather have skipped it completely.

I know the world at your age is a big and wonderful place...how religion (esp. faithful Catholicism) can seem to be a hinderance to "enjoying life". Been there....done that....(In the words of Archbishop Fulton Sheen, "I wish I knew half of what I thought I knew when I was 18"...) However, that doesn't give you the right to trash, belittle, or ridicule those who do believe in God, especially Jesus Christ.

I don’t reject religion because it is a hindrance to enjoying life (which it is). I reject religion for the same reason that I reject elves, leprechauns, dragons, and Ewoks: Lack of evidence. I’ve seen no more credible proof for god than I have for Santa. It has nothing to do with the limitations that religion imposes. I reject religion for the same reason you reject every single religion except Catholicism.

As for the right to trash, belittle, and ridicule those who believe in god… Those who believe in god seem to think that they have that right. That includes you. If you can, why can’t I?

- First, faith in Him is a gift from Him...but one has to at least be receptive to the idea that the possibility may exist that He Exists...
- Two, There is historical, archaeological, and supernatural proof that He (Jesus) existed. First century Jewish (not Christian) Historian Josephus (and others) mention Him, by name...There's even been speculation in recent years that these 12 guys sat around and got drunk one night and came up with this story....but let's examine that a little further...almost every last one of those 12 suffered terrible, excruciatingly painful deaths...now, if it were a "story", would they have willingly gone to those lengths to protect the lie? I think not...not to mention all the other "early Christians" who willingly died as martyrs...all for the sake of "a story?"

I was receptive to the possibility that god exists (by that I mean your god). I was also receptive to the possibility that allah, the enlightened Buddha, the many gods of the pagans, the gods of the hindus, etc. You know what? The only system that held up under scrutiny was atheism. So I stuck with that.

People don’t suffer for false beliefs? How about the suicide bombing terrorists? How about cult members who “drink the kool-aid”? And how do you know that those 12 really existed? Could they have been (or if they did exist, their deaths) invented to help prove the point of the authors of the bible?

All of the other "religions" are set up as man reaching up to God...Only, Only, I repeat Only Christianity is God, reaching DOWN to man...Only Judaism/Christianity has so many "proofs" of it's existence...Solomon's Temple wall, Jacob's well, and others mentioned in the Old Testament...but even moreso...The Shroud of Turin (Jesus' burial cloth - which science cannot explain how the image came to be on the cloth) www.shroud.com , Juan Diego's Thilma with "Our Lady of Guadalupe"'s image on it...whereby, you can "see" the reflection of the Bishop and others in the room when Juan Diego unfurled his Thilma to give the Bishop his Roses that Mary had given to Juan Diego...not knowing that the image was there...No scientific explanation for that image...

Wow. Don’t really know what to say to that, other than you have a lot of research to do. Even if there WEREN’T scientific explanations for the miracles, then I suppose that you’re also Hindu, because of this compelling evidence for Hinduism: http://www.milkmiracle.com/
By your logic, you’d also best accept the eternal truth of the muslim religion, because of the indisputable evidence of this: http://www.backtoislam.com/?cat=68
Allah written in the watermelon almost makes you want to pray east on a mat, doesn’t it? Or maybe people see what they want to see to reinforce beliefs that they already hold? Hmmm…

[Blah, blah, blah, blah... edited for your sanity. Was formerly about Fatima]

You’re right. How can I dispute the scientific truth of Fatima. It has been confirmed in lab test after lab test.

I’ll bet you could easily get a bunch of people from a David Copperfield show to tell you that they all saw the elephant vanish. They saw it WITH THEIR OWN EYES! How can you deny the reality that those people experienced? Let’s be serious for a moment. David Copperfield can’t actually make elephants vanish. It’s an illusion. No miracles with Mr. Copperfield. In fact, no miracles, period.

You don't have to be able to "see" something for it to be true...You can sit there and deny til you're blue in the face that there's no such thing as radio and TV waves...you can't see them, hear them, touch them, smell them, or taste them...yet, we know they are there...as long as you are tuned into them with the "proper receptacle"...God isn't much different than that...he doesn't "force" us to believe...it is a gift...

FALSE ANALOGY! We can measure and quantify electro-magnetic energy. We can adjust it. We can make accurate predictions using what we know about it. Do you have a god-o-meter? How many god-o-trons are present at a Lutheran church? How about a jewish temple?

but the prize for that gift comes with an awesome ultimate prize, as well as an awesome responsibility. What you were given at birth was more valuable than the most precious gems in all the world, and you're tossing it away like a used candy wrapper....not even bothering to check into it a little to see if it's actually true...with the end result having the utmost of consequences, I guess I'd be a lot more careful and sure before "throwing away" that wrapper...You know, C.S. Lewis was a devout atheist until about age 30...

Again, I did check to see if it was real. I checked more than a little. Turns out it wasn’t. Still isn’t. Plus you have an appeal to emotion. Also an appeal to consequences. Bit of Occam’s Razor, too, which has been thoroughly refuted many times by many people.

Lewis was an unwilling convert
"You may picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted for even a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In...1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England."

He, too, didn't want to acquiesce to God...he wanted to be ruler of his own "dominion"...without all those troublesome rules put upon us by "religion"

Again. Atheists aren’t atheists because they want to get away from the rules of religion. They’re atheists because they DON’T BELIEVE IN GOD. I don’t not believe in unicorns because I’m afraid of getting gored by those big horns of theirs, I don’t believe in unicorns because there is a serious lack of evidence for the existence of unicorns. This is like saying that you don’t want to be Muslim just because you don’t want to have to avoid alcohol and because you want to skip making the holy pilgrimage to Mecca. No. You’re not Muslim because you think the whole thing is made up. Not real. Fake. False. An invention. And that’s what I think about Islam, too! But I also think that about Hinduism, and Christianity, and Buddhism, and paganism and Satanism, and Mormonism, and native American spirituality, etc.

...but where would we be without them....look around you..society is falling faster and faster into a cesspool of "I am my own God", you can't tell me what to do...I know what's good for me... Imagine, for a moment Christopher, where your nieces and nephews (or GOD WILLING) your own children are going to have to go through if the current trend continues... God gave us parameters for our own good...

That’s an appeal to consequences. It has nothing to do with whether something is true or not. Let’s agree with you for a moment. Let’s assume that if the whole world turns to atheism, there will be nothing but rape and robbery and murder and riots. The world generally becomes a nasty place to be. Does this mean that atheism is false? Nope. It just means that if the whole world turns to atheism, misery will follow. However, no knowledgeable person thinks that is the case. There are many moral theories that have nothing to do with religion that most certainly do not end with a violent, bloody world. Also, atheists do not say that “I am my own God”. That is the motto of modern Satanism. I’d like to add, modern Satanists don’t believe that god or satan exist. Most of us hold to a moral theory that has just as many restrictions as most religions. I know I do. Just because they aren’t the same, doesn’t mean that I don’t have them. The statement that atheism = no morals is so obviously false that I cannot fathom how some people can hold to such a belief.

Let me give you this example and I will end this e-mail.... If you, while growing up, had an infected tooth, and your Dad took you to the dentist, to have that tooth repaired, causing you to suffer deep and excruciating pain...but saving your life tby stopping the spread of infection...wasn't that pain worth it? The same can be said for God, He is the dentist...we just have to come to Him "on a daily basis" to clear the infection...

No. We don’t. You think we do, but we don’t.

I have a better analogy: If you went to the dentist, along with millions of other people, and most people who went to see him and ask for help, never got the help they needed. What would you do? What if the receptionist told you that the dentist has his reasons for not seeing you (nobody can ask the dentist any questions directly, you can only talk to the receptionist). What if she said that you really aren’t in any position to question the dentist’s judgment, after all, you aren’t a dentist yourself, so what do you know? I don’t have to ask. I know what you’d do. You’d find another dentist. Now, let’s say that you looked around and found that EVERY DENTIST IN THE WORLD WAS JUST AS UNHELPFUL. You’d probably come to the conclusion that dentistry is a load of crap, and you’d come to the rational conclusion that sometimes, you just have a toothache, and nobody can fix it for you. You just have to deal with it. There, I fixed your analogy. You can thank me later.

There are literally thousands of other examples of miracles that He has given to us...unexplainable by modern science (seemingly, your God)...miracles of the Eucharist turning into human flesh; documented unexplainable healings...physically, mentally, psychologically, etc);

You know what? Hindus have documented faith healings, too. Are you hindu yet? No? But faith healings are such wonderful proof that the religion that performed them is the right one! Even though multiple religions have documented faith healings… hmmm… It suddenly sounds like a much less reliable method for determining the truth of a religion’s claims. On a related note: Why does got hate amputees so much? I mean, people always come to faith healers with “mysterious pain” and mental illness, and other problems which medical science has PROVEN can be ALL IN THE PERSON’S HEAD (which means that simple power of suggestion would cure them…) But faith healers are never able to regrow the lost limbs of amputees. Either A) god hates amputees or B) god just hasn’t figured that one out yet. Either way, it casts doubt on the whole subject.

many, many other things that are far too numerous to list here...nonetheless, there and ready to be discovered by those who have the least amount of interest before tossing aside eternal consequences...

I have looked. I discovered wishful thinking from people who are unable to back up their claims with hard evidence. Lots of assertions, though. I’ll give you that.

and, as far as your citing Thomas Jefferson in your "atheist" paper...he was no gift to Christianity...but then again, trying to justify a position "outside the Church" whereby you are your own Pope and you make up your own rules (as do all the protestant churches...that is why we have 30,000 different denominations of Christianity today)

What, I’m my own pope? I never said that. In fact, I don’t think that. I just think I’m a guy, who exists in reality (the place where god doesn’t exist). I live in a world where there is no definitive source on good and bad. I have my feelings about the subject, which is a product of evolution and the society in which I was raised, which has given rise to many secular moral theories. So if by making up my own rules you mean selecting a moral theory which has been developed through reason and deep thought and which also fits with my natural sense of justice and the way the world ought to be based on my own reflections on life, then I suppose you could say that I’m making up my own rules. But then you’d be redefining a lot of words. Let’s not do that. Let’s stick with the ones that we’ve settled on in the English language.

...it's no wonder he was confused......and, just to let you know, I can back up almost all the Church teaches, but one would have to believe in the truth of the Bible first...

I suppose that IF the bible were true, that would make Catholicism the true branch of Christianity. That doesn’t mean the bible is true.

So, here we are....probably at an impasse...You are my wife's brother, whom I have known ALMOST all his life. I love you with all my heart and PRAY that you will fall out of this "hold" Satan has on you (and, Yes, he does have a hold on you...whether you want to admit it or not.)

You’re wrong here. Satan isn’t real. Neither are vampires or elves or unicorns. I put them all together in the category of “silly fantasies”.

Let me guess...any chance you play Dungeons and Dragons?

Yup. It’s fun. And I’ll bet you have no understanding of what it really is, what the rules really are, and have never played, nor witnessed, nor actually listened to somebody who does. You accept the drivel offered by the likes of Jack Chick and never stopped to think that it’s just something that Lord of the Rings fans created so that they could combine their love of LotR and related fantasy works with their passion for miniature military wargames.

Have any attachment to the occult?

Um… Are horror novels and zombie films occult? If so, then you could say I’m a fan. Here’s a little secret for you. Atheists don’t buy into anything witchcraft or magic or that new-age crap. To us, it’s every bit as silly as the idea that there is a god. I’m interested in occult topics the same way I’m interested in ancient mythology (the Iliad, the Odyssey, Epic of Gilgamesh, the Bible). It’s a fun read, but it’s just made up. No atheist is “involved” in the occult. It’s kind of a contradiction.

I am glad you've lessened the "Goth" look, but that's no assurance there's less "Goth influence"...

Wow. So that ranks up there as one of the most ignorant things I’ve ever read. A) Not goth, metalhead. I understand that all you know is that they both wear black and listen to music that you attribute to Mr. Evil McSatan, but let me assure you, there’s a difference. B) Do you have any idea how many Goths are Christian? The whole sacrificing themselves in the name of loving another, rising from the dead, etc. Goths tend to eat that stuff up. I’d say Christianity is one of the more popular religions, based on the number of Goths I’ve talked to. Again however, I’m not, nor have I ever been “Goth”, so I’m no expert. And what exactly would a “Goth influence” be? The desire to write crappy nihilistic poetry? Might just be me here, but sounds like you’re spewing nonsensical jibberish.

I guess, the best I can say is, I pray...with all my heart, that I never have to go through what you, obviously, are putting your parents through...(and, I swear, this has not come up in conversation with either of them, that I know of).

They don’t seem devastated at all. They’ve come to a mature and adult understanding that people have different beliefs. They have come to the sensible conclusion that trying to convert me is futile. It is no easier to convince me of the existence of god than it is to convince me of the existence of gnomes. Those who try have their work cut out for them. But, I’m always grateful that they waste their efforts on me, rather than wind up converting somebody who has a lesser understanding of science and logic and may actually be swayed by weak, vacuous arguments.

To spend 18 years rasing my child, educating them, teaching them, instilling values and beliefs and then send them off to college (whether I pay financially for it or not) only to have those beliefs and standards undermined and eliminated in the span of 4 short years...well, suffice it to say, there would be HELL to pay......

Mark, I was an atheist since WAY before college. Best as I can remember, I’d put it somewhere around middle school.

State schools aren’t the anti-christ you paint them to be. Do you have any idea how many Christian groups there are on campus? Their stuff is hanging everywhere. I was hoping for a more anti-religions atmosphere. Trust me, it isn’t here.

Well, not knowing really how to end this, or even if you'll read it all, I'll say goodbye for now. Valerie and I love you both very, very much and would like nothing more than to have you have your wedding in a Catholic Church by a Priest, consecrated to God from the beginning. I do, actually respect you, for not having a church wedding, and going for the "show effect" if that's not what you believe.

Don’t hold your breath. We aren’t getting married in a church, period. No priest, no consecration. Mark my words, not now, not ever. Thank you for respecting it, even though you respect it for all the wrong reasons. Oh well, I guess I’d be wasting my time waiting for better.

I just pray now, that you will believe by the time you do get married...I know Valerie and I both will be praying diligently for that to happen...

And I hope that you and Valerie will see the light of reason and reject religion to lead a more fulfilling life in which you accept yourself as the true source of success or failure, and realize that improvement comes solely from the work of humans. May I recommend reading the Humanist Manifesto 2000 with an open mind, especially given that I already gave your book a shot? Keep in mind, not all atheists are humanists, not by a long shot, but many are. If you read that, you’ll see that we aren’t working for a violent hate-filled world, but a peaceful, happy world.

I hate to nit-pick, but you still haven’t been able to defend the argument against evolution that you first e-mailed me. Please, either look up the information necessary to understand it or ask me for clarification. I’d really like to see what you can come up with, or if you’ll accept that evolution truly is the way that it happened.
Love,

Chris

QRUEL

I'm very impressed by how civil you were able to keep your responses, which i found to be very respectful to both parties, thoughtful and insightful.

funny how believers always want us to read a book cause they think it will help convert us, but at least the ones I've dealt with have never read the ones I've given them.... must be some bible verse somewhere that tells them not to.

BigJim

I think you meant Pascal's Wager, not Occam's Razor.

Hmm, I somehow doubt that his BIL will agree that it's civil and respectful.

Paul2

The god-o-meter bit rocked.

Paul2

So you don't want to hear opposing views then? Start a new thread instead of hijacking this guys.

Yahzi

It was reasonably civil. And utterly futile, of course.

You know you're not going to change his mind. But you can find a way to live in peace with him. Your next email should be something along the lines of,

"This is what I believe. I'm not asking you to believe it. I'm only asking you to trust that I have the best interests of your sister and our family at heart and will do right by them. I am asking you to accept that my position is at least honest and consistent, and trust that it demonstrates my intellectual integrity. You might not agree with where I am, but if you can agree I got there through honest means, then we can agree to disagree, secure that eventually the truth will become known to both of us, whatever it is."

This is a kind of olive branch. It will require you to not try and de-convert your BIL (but of course, you were only responding to his crap). At the same time, it makes it clear that if there is any further trouble, it's his fault. Generally I have found that once you require the theist to directly and openly challenge your honesty and integrity, they back down (assuming you have previously established these, of course).

You're never going to get him to admit you are right. He can't afford to. But you can get him to admit you're a good person. That's the most I've ever achieved with a religious person, and I'm reasonably certain its the most anyone ever can.

When people do deconvert, it is for internal reasons.

Now, on a completely different topic, how does your bride feel about not getting married in a church? Whatever your relationship with your BIL and the truth, your relationship with your wife comes first. She might have entirely irrational and yet still powerful notions about what a wedding looks like, and you violate those at your peril. After all, love is about indulging each other sometimes.

Krztoff

I think you might have misunderstood. I'm not marrying his sister. He married mine, when I was only a few years old (there is a considerable age gap between my older sister and I, in fact, by brother-in-law is 46, and I am 22, which changes the nature of our relationship a bit, since I grew up with him as an authority figure when I was around them). My fiancee and I are only connected to him through my older sister, his wife. My fiancee is agnostic, so she thinks the same as me on the subject of church weddings. To be honest, I think she's even more angry at him than I am.

In addition, I don't think that it is futile. If I can show him that what I believe can be backed up by science, and his cannot, then he will have to fall back on "it just takes faith". Once that happens, I win. When somebody says that, all I hear is "I'm irrational and have no good reason to believe as I do." And that's all I want to hear.

Plus, I want to shut him up. He's going to keep trying to "save" my fiancee and I until I do. Eventually, I'm sure he'll try the same thing on our kids when we have them. He thinks that no matter how much family trouble it causes, it's all worth it as long as it keeps us from his mythical hell.

Whether I show him that his arguments are worthless, or just blaspheme until he's too angry to ever speak to us again, I WILL stop him from bringing up his religious bullshit around us.

Krztoff

Yeah, I always mix those two up. My bad.


Yeah, he won't think it's very civil In fact, I'm pretty sure that Mark will consider my e-mail to be a vicious and unprovoked attack on christianity.