S.C.Carlson

Too boring. Already been done before.

Celsus

Quite right. The last person who tried it got found out.

Joel

S.C.Carlson

Hmm, I connected this with Mark 1:16-20, which put the four's home in Capernaum.

Lack of irony -- good point.

Amaleq13

Here's all I could find that seems even vaguely relevant...(from the NIV):

“Does a lion roar in the thicket

when he has no prey?

Does he growl in his den

when he has caught nothing?� (Amos 3:4)

“Moreover, no man knows when his hour will come: As fish are caught in a cruel net, or birds are taken in a snare, so men are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly upon them.� (Ecclesiastes 9:12)

“I will spread my net for him, and he will be caught in my snare� (Ecclesiastes 12:13; 17:20)

Vorkosigan

Let's look at more of Peter's proposed reconstruction:

• [GJ 21:4, cf. EA] Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
  5 He called out to them, "Friends, haven't you any fish?" "No," they answered.
  6 He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.
  [Luke] At the sight of this, Simon Peter fell to his knees and said, "Have nothing to do with me, Lord, heathen that I am!"
  [EA] Then said he unto us: Come, fear ye not. I am your master, even he, O Peter, whom thou didst deny thrice; and dost thou now deny again?
  8 The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards.
  9 When they landed, they saw a fire there with fish on it, and some bread.
  10 Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught."
  11 Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore.
  12 Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord.
  13 Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish.
  15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."
  16 Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
  17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep."
  19 Then he said to him, "Follow me!"

Let me first develop some brackets for it:

A: Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
...B: He called out to them, "Friends, haven't you any fish?"
......C: "No," they answered.
.........D: He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some."
.........D: When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.
......C: At the sight of this, Simon Peter fell to his knees and said, "Have nothing to do with me, Lord, heathen that I am!"
......C: Then said he unto us: Come, fear ye not. I am your master, even he, O Peter, whom thou didst deny thrice; and dost thou now deny again?
...B: The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards.
A: When they landed, they saw a fire there with fish on it, and some bread.

It seems that this comment to Simon Peter doesn't really work.

......C: At the sight of this, Simon Peter fell to his knees and said, "Have nothing to do with me, Lord, heathen that I am!"

Without it, you have:
A: Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
....B: He called out to them, "Friends, haven't you any fish?"
........C: "No," they answered.
............D: He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some."
............D: When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.
........C: Then said he unto us: Come, fear ye not. I am your master, even he, O Peter, whom thou didst deny thrice; and dost thou now deny again?
....B: The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards.
A: When they landed, they saw a fire there with fish on it, and some bread.

Note another problem: in the remaining C bracket there is a switch from third to first person. Again a later reworking (but we knew that already).

The A bracket works very well as a Markan statement, resembling verses like:

• . 2: And when he had come out of the boat, there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

The question is whether the A' bracket I have is actually the B bracket of the next pericope. it could very well be:

A:The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards.
....B: When they landed, they saw a fire there with fish on it, and some bread.

But let's stick with

• A: When they landed, they saw a fire there with fish on it, and some bread.
  ....B: Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught."
  .......C: Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore.
  ..........D: Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast."
  ..........D:None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord.
  ......C: Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish.

Forget it. There's no chiasm here. There's nothing at all Markan about this sequence. The sequence below is even worse.

• 15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."
  16 Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
  17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep."
  19 Then he said to him, "Follow me!"

It seems that a major clue is provided here in John:

• This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after that he was risen from the dead

That's from John 21, where the allegedly Markan ending is hiding. If Mark originally had three appearances by Jesus, then the ending is well and truly lost.

Vorkosigan

Peter Kirby

Michael, when you say that there is a switch from first to third person, what you are looking at is the fact that GPeter and the Epistula Apostolorum are in the first person, while the 21st chapter of John is in the third person.

best,
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby

D.H. van Daalen writes of the Johannine appendix:

• It has often been pointed out that the reference to the appearance by the lakeside as the third appearance is rather odd (21:14). It is not true that chapter 20 already has three, because the appearance to Mary Magdalene was not one to the disciples. But the verse seems pointless unless there were some who did not regard this as the third appearance. The note of verse 14 is clearly meant to link this story, traditionally not regarded as the third appearance, to the two already described in chapter 20. But it seems highly unlikely that the tradition would count the Lord's appearances as no. 1, no. 2, no. 3, and so on. The only one that would be remembered with a figure attached would be the first. It is therefore not unreasonable to assume that the Evangelist received this story as the Lord's first appearance.
  
  The contents of the story confirm that. If one reads John 21:2-13 by itself there is nothing to suggest that Jesus known to have been raised from the dead and had already appeared to his disciples.

So I doubt that this is the third of three stories in some prior document (such as Mark).

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan

That's an interesting argument. But it is based on false premises:

• But it seems highly unlikely that the tradition would count the Lord's appearances as no. 1, no. 2, no. 3, and so on.

"the tradition" is an assumption of NT scholarship. If this came from Mark, there is no tradition behind it at all and hence, it is quite possible that a redactor stuck that in there for whatever reasons of his own. Such triplets are a common feature of Mark -- three passion predictions, three denials of Jesus by Peter, three offerings of Jesus to the crowd by Pilate, three women witnesses, etc. Three resurrection appearances would be right up Mark's alley.

Peter Kirby

I would focus on two points here:

This is the third appearance in John. So if there was another list of three, one is assuming that John dropped the first two in favor of his own two and kept only the third.

This reads like a first appearance account.

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan

I see what you are saying. It does read like a first appearance account.