Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maryhelena · 10-20-2010, 09:56 AM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

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Come now - looking for history within theology is nonsensical

But sometimes it's necessary. It's done every day in the study of Judaism and Samaritanism through the ages. Why should Christianity be any different?

If it was a perfect world everyone ends up marrying a cheerleader. But the world is imperfect. We end up dealing with what's left and which might be less desirable. But sometimes less desirable is still necessary. Ask a guy in lock up for twenty years.

And what are the alternatives?

The alternative - ditch the theology - and start digging for history. First stop - give Josephus a serious work-over....

It's not christian ideas - they are two a penny. Christianity is not known as the 'mother of heretics' for nothing. Investigating christian ideas insures a continual spin on a merry-go-around. It's the origin, the foundation, of the christian movement, not it's theological open-ended super-structure, that is of interest historically.

dogsgod · 10-20-2010, 10:11 AM

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

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Originally Posted by dogsgod

From reading Paul it appears that a risen Christ appeared to the others just as it appeared to Paul, through revelations, visions. No one's experience appears to be any different than Paul's. The apostles claimed to receive messages from God through Jesus Christ by way of revelation, and in turn they passed these messages on to their adherents. It seems that apostles were self appointed, or chosen by God as Paul claims, Galatians 2:7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews. 8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. so claiming authority was a way of asserting that one knew the truth and was able to pass it on to their respective congregations.

It was a battle between apostles over adherents, and in the midst of a turf war Paul agreed with the Jerusalem group that he would preach to the gentles and they would continue to preach to the Jews. Paul felt he had as much authority as anyone else and why not?

Gal 2:9James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.

Yep - that the story......but if it's history we are after methinks we should be putting the story aside...

From reading the earliest of the Christian writings, the epistles, it appears that apostles believed they could communicate with God through a risen Christ, or at least that's what they preached and there's no reason to believe they weren't sincere about that. Apostles were self appointed, and they vied with one another for adherents. There were no disciples written of in the epistles, disciples were a later gospel development. That's not a story, that's what we read from writers explaining their faith.

maryhelena · 10-20-2010, 10:16 AM

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Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

But sometimes it's necessary. It's done every day in the study of Judaism and Samaritanism through the ages. Why should Christianity be any different?

Of course, history creates theology (just look at the history of I&J) so it doesn't seem like looking for history in theology is such a nonsensical idea.

There were definite historical/sociological precursors that led to creating a fictionalized/theological version of the history of Israel and Judah. I'm sure the same can be done with Christianity.

Ah - but once the magic wand of theology has come into play - getting back to historical realities (ie comprehending them) becomes problematic - transformation is all. Historical realities are viewed through a theological lens - re-interpreted as salvation history - history transformed into pseudo-history....:constern01:...

dogsgod · 10-20-2010, 10:27 AM

The church is older than the oldest Christian writings, and it was this church that produced the story of Christ.

That's history.

maryhelena · 10-20-2010, 10:35 AM

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Originally Posted by dogsgod

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

Yep - that the story......but if it's history we are after methinks we should be putting the story aside...

From reading the earliest of the Christian writings, the epistles, it appears that apostles believed they could communicate with God through a risen Christ, or at least that's what they preached and there's no reason to believe they weren't sincere about that. Apostles were self appointed, and they vied with one another for adherents. There were no disciples written of in the epistles, disciples were a later gospel development. That's not a story, that's what we read from writers explaining their faith.

So - a story about faith.....

dogsgod · 10-20-2010, 10:39 AM

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

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Originally Posted by dogsgod

From reading the earliest of the Christian writings, the epistles, it appears that apostles believed they could communicate with God through a risen Christ, or at least that's what they preached and there's no reason to believe they weren't sincere about that. Apostles were self appointed, and they vied with one another for adherents. There were no disciples written of in the epistles, disciples were a later gospel development. That's not a story, that's what we read from writers explaining their faith.

So - a story about faith.....

Yes, his story, history.

stephan huller · 10-20-2010, 11:09 AM

Even propaganda films from the Nazi regime tell us important things about the Nazi regime. To simply ignore historical evidence because it manifests itself as 'theology' is utterly idiotic.

maryhelena · 10-20-2010, 11:22 AM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

Even propaganda films from the Nazi regime tell us important things about the Nazi regime. To simply ignore historical evidence because it manifests itself as 'theology' is utterly idiotic.

Really - then how about supplying some indication that your assumption has some merit - ie reference some early christian history that can be observed through the lens of christian theology.

stephan huller · 10-20-2010, 11:47 AM

Why do I have to justify using early Christian sources to study the history of the early Church? This is now a 'questionable' methodology? I don't even know why I am bothering to respond to this nonsense.

maryhelena · 10-20-2010, 11:59 AM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

Why do I have to justify using early Christian sources to study the history of the early Church? This is now a 'questionable' methodology? I don't even know why I am bothering to respond to this nonsense.

But I thought you just said that 'historical evidence......manifests itself as 'theology'....I'm simply asking you to support your assertion.

Quote:

To simply ignore historical evidence because it manifests itself as 'theology' is utterly idiotic.

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10-20-2010, 10:27 AM	#274
dogsgod Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: British Columbia Posts: 104	The church is older than the oldest Christian writings, and it was this church that produced the story of Christ. That's history.

10-20-2010, 11:09 AM	#277
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Even propaganda films from the Nazi regime tell us important things about the Nazi regime. To simply ignore historical evidence because it manifests itself as 'theology' is utterly idiotic.

10-20-2010, 11:47 AM	#279
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Why do I have to justify using early Christian sources to study the history of the early Church? This is now a 'questionable' methodology? I don't even know why I am bothering to respond to this nonsense.

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