archibald

Ted,

Here's one for you.

You mentioned 1 Cor 9:1, and the possible linkage between the two 'juxtaposed' short rhetorical questions, 'Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus?'

This, depending on what way we read it, might, as I think you may have implied and with which I might have felt like agreeing, support the idea that apostles were, at least in one very important way, those who had seen The Big Man Himself. Maybe there were grades of apostle. I don't know.

But, does it not undercut the mention of 500 witnesses? Suddenly, right here, near the start of the whole shebang, the 'I've seen Jesus' set is not in the least bit exclusive, and we might reasonably ask, after reading 1Cor 9:1 a certain way, why there weren't 512 apostles (or 511, or 513, or whatever)?

Seems like if we want to keep the 500 in (and I know you're not arguing for it necessarily), we have to ditch any strong support in 1 Cor 9:1 for him citing the other select group. Which feels counter intuitive, because this implies him as saying, 'Am I not an apostle, and into the bargain, am I not one of the many, many blokes who has seen him, as well as my being an apostle?'. Makes one wonder how to explain how he got to be an apostle.

archibald

or, a solution to that one may be that 500 saw him, at a distance (we have those sorts of things at a village here called Knock, in relation to his mum 'appearing' to huge crowds, most recently in the 1980's I believe) but that Paul was 'special' and had an intimate chat, but still, it's not much of a solution, since the answer to 'Have I not seen Jesus?' is arguably, 'who hasn't, mate?'

judge

What sort of numerology Toto?

Solo

But then again what good would explanations do to a mick who climbs on the roof of the pub when he is told the drinks are on the house ?

Jiri

aa5874

Well, it may be that "Paul" invented the 500 story. It is most fascinating that it has not been taken into account that "Paul" invented his stories about the resurrection to appear to have gotten authority from Jesus Christ whom he claimed was raised from the dead on the THIRD day.

Iskander

Paul invented the resurrection, the 500 and pretended that ditching Judaism made us all eternally happy and ..., but I think we are discussing the interpretation of the text for what is worth.

Paul saying 500 remind me of an old Mexican joke, it goes like this:

A general sends a trooper to gather information about the approaching enemy and report back.

The soldier returns very agitated and says that 5001 enemy soldiers are approaching, when the amazed general questions the very precise number the soldier explains that there is an officer in front and about 5000 following him.
Paul might have said 501 if he had been Mexican, [or British]

spin

You needed to put "to me" in bold or something for rhetorical accuracy. Loose translation: "It is not well-understood by me."

It just means that you don't remember the first reference I gave at all.

Neusner was the second linked example of the issue I posted. Dunn was the first, half way through this, noted as "Try here." And I specifically said, "Neusner also subscribes to this understanding of the terminology, as do various others (references on request)". What I have cited is a widespread scholarly analysis.

No. I state the scholarly situation and you keep shunning it. (I did look for an ostrich smiley.)

You trivialize the abortion language of the passage, willing to give that away as sus. You ignore the "technical" meaning of παραλαμβανω. You claim that Paul includes material in his argument that he never functionally uses, as though placed it there like a decoration--you know, an unnecessary rehearsal of the reminder.

And, to top it off, you think that "we" is better associated with those in 1 Cor 15:3-11 who the Corinthians have basically never seen, when Paul spent the first three and a half chapters of the letter discussing the "we".

TedM

Interesting point. Could argue for the other apostles having seen the Big Man during his heyday. While the disciples could make that claim, I assume that Barnabass and Apollos (both mentioned in 1 Cor), and perhaps James himself were considered apostles too so yes the number could theoretically have been as high as 512+ had those 500 all decided they would become preachers too. I think we have to add 'preacher of Jesus' to the criteria..

Gotta go, and as mentioned on other thread I will have to take a leave for a while due to personal issues. Enjoyed your posts,

Ted

aa5874

Your post is most illogical. How in the world can a claim in gLuke be corroborative of itself? How can the test of the veracity of a claim be the claim itself?

Once the NT Canon is being questioned for its historical content then you MUST find non-apologetic sources of antiquity that can support the claims.

This is the worst that I have seen.

The NT is NOT a reliable source so please FIRST find a corroborative source of antiquity.

aa5874

Not at all. Please, I do NOT want to get involved with statements that are NOT reflective of the WRITTEN evidence.

In the Pauline writings, the author claimed that he used WRITTEN SOURCES that mentioned that Jesus was RAISED from the dead on the THIRD day.

1Co 15:3 -4 Please, there were SCRIPTURES with the resurrection of Jesus according to the Pauline writings.

"Paul" in the NT Canon did NOT even claim he invented the resurrection.

Please, whatever you claim about "Paul" must be presented with your supporting documents from antiquity.

There is ZERO corroborative sources for "Paul"