Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 05-31-2006, 10:28 AM

Jesus makes plain that your should love your enemies, because you will get a reward, not because they will receive a benefit from your act of love.

RUmike · 05-31-2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwater

Quit spliting hairs.

I'm not. I can help someone out that I strongly dislike without loving them. Big difference there.

RUmike · 05-31-2006, 01:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Blackwater

Besides, Jesus, who said to “love your enemies,” will nevertheless, according to the majority position, torture his enemies forever.

Practice what you preach, anyone?

Yes but good luck finding historical evidence in the gospels that Jesus ever taugh such a thing. I think you will find it lacking.

RUmike · 05-31-2006, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Jesus makes plain that your should love your enemies, because you will get a reward, not because they will receive a benefit from your act of love.

Actually, one of the reasons Jesus cites for loving enemies is because God "causes the sun to rise on both the bad and the good, and sends rain on both the just and the unjust" (Matt 5:45). So it seems to be more of a case of mimicking their creator as a reason for doing it. Below is a little more on that saying and its Lukan parallel from a workbook for my historical Jesus class, made by Mahlon Smith:

Quote:

Luke 6:35 echoes an aphorism of the Roman stoic philosopher Seneca; the parallel in Matt 5:45 does not. Matt's wording is traceable to Q, since it is not in line with that gospel's usual emphasis on God's punishment of the wicked. (Note that the bad are even given priority over the good). Other early Christian writers also usually stress divine judgment of evil. Divine indifference to human ethics is a principle found in Greek philosophy (Stoics, Epicureans). The only earlier Jew to stress this was the author of the radical wisdom book Qoheleth (Ecclesiastes). Seneca advocates mimicking divine indifference, but only to the extent of being generous to the ungrateful. Matt 5:45 is the only text in antiquity that cites divine indifference as motive to treat enemies well, even the bad and unjust.

yummyfur · 05-31-2006, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUmike

I'm not. I can help someone out that I strongly dislike without loving them. Big difference there.

Oh give this crap a break
you CAN"T "love" someone, while simulteanously classifying them as an enemy. So Jesus's whole statement is stupid.

You can't "love" someone you stongly dislike, except by semantic gobblygook that is totally meaningless, but some Christians seem to delight in.

Most people judge someone's intention's towards them based on actions, if one only acts "good" towards a person, they will probably think well of that persons intentions.

Personally I would much rather people treat me "good", than with "love", with all it's quite crazy interpretations, like say "tough love" or making the person act in ways that YOU think are best for them, as opposed to their own desires, etc.

RED DAVE · 05-31-2006, 01:45 PM

From RED DAVE:

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1) Many of us would be a lot more impressed by Jesus' stricture to love your enemies if we saw the slightest hint that this is taken to heart by his followers.

From RUMike:

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No offense Dave, but this is a pretty awful argument. Unless I am misunderstanding, you are discrediting Jesus because of something his followers do. There is no rational basis for that whatsoever.

Sorry, dude, but there's plenty of rational basis. Jesus putting forward a set of ideals so rigid that no one can live up to them gives those who are supposed to live up to them, his followers, carte blanche to do what the fuck they want and then ask for forgiveness.

As a secular Jew, the hypocrisy of xtianity is quite clear to me. xtians walk around with their eyes on the clouds and their feet in blood. To me, George Bush is the perfect xtian: professing high ideals and accomplishing mass murder.

From RUMike:

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It seems people around here will do anything in order to not admit that Jesus may have had a good idea here and there.

Good ideas are a dime a dozen in human history. The point is good practice, which xtianity lacks.

And I notice you haven't addressed the bullshit about adultery.

RED DAVE

RUmike · 05-31-2006, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yummyfur

Oh give this crap a break
you CAN"T "love" someone, while simulteanously classifying them as an enemy. So Jesus's whole statement is stupid.

You can't "love" someone you stongly dislike, except by semantic gobblygook that is totally meaningless, but some Christians seem to delight in.

Most people judge someone's intention's towards them based on actions, if one only acts "good" towards a person, they will probably think well of that persons intentions.

Personally I would much rather people treat me "good", than with "love", with all it's quite crazy interpretations, like say "tough love" or making the person act in ways that YOU think are best for them, as opposed to their own desires, etc.

I could care less about the philosophy behind the statement. My point was, its radically distinctive in ancient society, with no parallel in Jesus' culture.

RUmike · 05-31-2006, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Sorry, dude, but there's plenty of rational basis. Jesus putting forward a set of ideals so rigid that no one can live up to them gives those who are supposed to live up to them, his followers, carte blanche to do what the fuck they want and then ask for forgiveness.

So if someone comes up with rigid ideals, but his followers cannot seem to follow them, and then act contrary to those ideals, we are to blame the person who came up with the ideals? Whatever, man. You can indulge in whatever Jesus-bashing fantasy you want if that's what makes you happy. I really don't care at this point.

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Good ideas are a dime a dozen in human history. The point is good practice, which xtianity lacks.

So your beef is with modern (and ancient) Christians, but not Jesus. You've concocted a peculiar relationship between the two.

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And I notice you haven't addressed the bullshit about adultery.

I believe you meant to direct that to someone else. I never wrote about adultery on this thread.

gstafleu · 05-31-2006, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

This [love your enemy] was sui generis then, and frankly is pretty unique now.

I'm not so sure. Robert Price, in Deconstructing Jesus, lists all of Q1, each verse accompanied by quotes showing where it came from. For "love your enemies" he gives three quotes.

1) A rather nice part of being a Cynic comes when you have to be beaten by an ass, and throughout the beating you have to love those who are beating you as though you were father or brother to them. (Epictetus)

2) How shall I defend myself against my enemy? By being good and kind towards him, replied Diogenes. (Gnomologium Vaticanum)

3) Someone gets angry with you. Challenge him with kindness in return. Enmity immediately tumbles away when one side lets it fall. (Seneca)

Epictetus lived c.55 - c.135 C.E. He could of course have gotten this from Jesus. But it is more likely this was a known mode of thought at the time.

Diogenes was c. 404-323 B.C.E., way before JC. The question then is when the GV was written, and if it accurately quotes Diogenes (I don't know).

Seneca lived ca. 4 BC–AD 65. Same issue as with Epictetus.

My conclusion is that "love your enemies" was a known idea at the time, not unique to Jesus.

striderlives · 05-31-2006, 03:22 PM

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It would have been better if he talked about being good for its own sake. I mean, what's so great about doing something if you are essentially getting paid?

'Zactly!

That's why I prefer the higher ethic found in:

"Do good for good is good to do. Spurn Bribe of Heaven and threat of Hell." - The Kasidah of Haji Abdu Al-Yezdi

Christians don't seem to understand the nature of altruism.
:frown:

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05-31-2006, 10:28 AM	#31
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Jesus makes plain that your should love your enemies, because you will get a reward, not because they will receive a benefit from your act of love.

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