Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Agenda07 · 12-28-2007, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Pardon me, but all this is entirely obscurantism, and of the kind that makes people laugh at the parochialism of Americans. Most of the people in the world are familiar with more than one language, after all. In UK schools we used to be taught French, German and Latin.

I don't think we have any grounds for mocking our American cousins when it comes to learning other languages. Foreign languages are no longer compulsory after the age of fourteen, and you won't find many state schools teaching Latin anymore. When I took my GCSEs in 2005 I was one of only four people in a year of 180 who chose to take both French and German. I went on to take French at A level and I've taught myself a little Latin and Greek, but nearly all the people I know are monolingual.

Clivedurdle · 12-28-2007, 03:05 PM

Eco discusses cultural misunderstanding using the example of Averroes' translation of Aristotle Poetics.(p85) (Phoenix 2003)

Quote:

Aristotle's text is full of references to Greek theatre.....Borges (notes) Averroes cannot catch the proper meaning of such words as tragedy and comedybecause such literary genres were alien to the Arab culture.....Readers are tempted to attribute such an ironic situation to the imagination of Borges, but what Borges narrates is what really happened to Averroes. Everything Aristotle refers to as tragedy is referred to by Averroes as poetry.....Averroes cannot think of staged actions and defines opsis as an argument which demonstrates the moral validity of the represented beliefs.

This discussion makes me wonder about GMark. Does the long ending turn a tragedy into a comedy - a story with a happy ending?

Roger Pearse · 12-29-2007, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agenda07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Pardon me, but all this is entirely obscurantism, and of the kind that makes people laugh at the parochialism of Americans. Most of the people in the world are familiar with more than one language, after all. In UK schools we used to be taught French, German and Latin.

I don't think we have any grounds for mocking our American cousins when it comes to learning other languages. Foreign languages are no longer compulsory after the age of fourteen, and you won't find many state schools teaching Latin anymore. When I took my GCSEs in 2005 I was one of only four people in a year of 180 who chose to take both French and German. I went on to take French at A level and I've taught myself a little Latin and Greek, but nearly all the people I know are monolingual.

No, I agree. I only indicated that it *is* a ground on which they get derided.

That said, it's a bit unreasonable. The reason all the Europeans speak more than one language is that they can pop down the road to cross the border and are instantly in France/Germany. We can't do that. Perhaps Mrs. T. was right to demand a channel bridge rather than a channel tunnel.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle · 12-29-2007, 03:20 AM

GMark reads very similarly to a modern Hollywood storybook. Rapid cuts from one scene to the next, building up the story line.

There also seem to be anomalous narratives, filler lines, as if a later editor has expanded things, added in explanations.

Has anyone looked at Mark in these terms?

http://pirates.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate...ovie_Storybook

Clivedurdle · 12-29-2007, 03:27 AM

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionrep...07/1864844.htm

Quote:

Oscar Wilde wrote about Jesus that his entire life is also the most wonderful of poems "For pity and terror there is nothing in the entire cycle of Greek tragedy to touch it".

Quote:

Smith (1999) points out how this pericope constitutes a recognition scene, a type scene from Greek drama.

"In the Gospel of Mark the recognition scene is both anticipated and delayed in just the same way as in Greek tragedy. People begin to recognise the distinctiveness of Jesus from the beginning of his ministry...The disciples, in particular, are privy to his inside teaching...and marvelous signs. Potentially, each such episode provides them with an opportunity to recognise who Jesus is, but they fail to do so, and Jesus becomes increasingly exasperated at their lack of understanding...."(p235)

An important difference, observes Smith, is that while in Greek tragedy it is the hero who accidently discovers his own identity, in Mark it is Jesus himself who initiates the recognition scene by asking the disciples who he is.

Weeden (1971) observes that in the entire Gospel prior to this moment, the disciples have no idea who Jesus is and exhibit a complete inability to understand Jesus. Suddenly they have a moment of insight, fleeting, as it becomes apparent that the disciples and Jesus have a totally different idea of what messiahship might mean. Weeden also notes that until this moment there has been no clue that the Messiah is supposed to suffer and die. Mark 3:6 warns of the plot against Jesus only. It contains nothing about his messianic role.

The presence of literary structures, redactive elements, and supernatural prophecy, all indicate that there is no support for historicity from this pericope.

http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark08.html

Clivedurdle · 12-29-2007, 03:37 AM

Quote:

I don't agree with Clivedurdle when he says, "the basic questions have not been asked - what are these works?" Every time I ask what genre are these texts, for what audience, why were they written, the question is asked, "what are these texts?"

spin

New years resolution - avoid rhetorical flourishes!

Clivedurdle · 12-29-2007, 03:46 AM

Anyone else notice how Wilde equates Greek tragedy with poetry and not theatre?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screenplay

Quote:

The major components of a screenplay are action and dialogue, with the "action" being "what we see happening" and "dialogue" being "what the characters say". The characters, when first introduced in the screenplay, may also be described visually. Screenplays differ from traditional literature conventions in ways described below; however, screenplays may not involve emotion-related descriptions and other aspects of the story that are, in fact, visual within the end-product.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storyboard

(Not sure if Disney did invent the story board - maybe the Greeks did!)

Clivedurdle · 12-30-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified

Has anyone asked how this was portrayed? A play?

Clivedurdle · 12-30-2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Luke tells us he worked as a tentmaker (Acts 18:3). Also note the references to labouring in the following: 2 Cor 6:5; 11:23,27. There was a large demand for tents at that time. Tentmaker was a good choice because they were needed everywhere. For example, there was a tentmakers’ union in Rome, the theatre was covered by tent, the Colossuem was covered by tent to protect people from the sun. Corinth was the home of the Ismian games every second year in the Spring. There was never a village there, just a temple and the municipality was responsible for putting up tents. If you travelled on a boat, you had your little tent. A tentmaker could repair anything. He had to presume everyone else was a thief, because if he lost his tools he would be finished. Therefore Paul may have slept on his chest on top of his tools.

http://www.frtommylane.com/bible/enj...on_to_paul.htm

Are there not many other allusions in the writings of Paul showing he had a good understanding of theatre?

Clivedurdle · 01-01-2008, 05:17 AM

I wonder if several Gordian knots may be slashed through with Ockham's Gillette improved razors by seriously looking at the New Testament from a theatrical perspective.

It does feel as if the translations we have have lost the "plot" by "playing" down the significance of theatre in communicating ideas.

Theatre and ritual and symbol are inextricably linked.

As humans, we work and learn multi sensorily. Humans have known this since the year dot - grave goods, red ochre as decoration, cave paintings.

Why any need for an oral tradition if everyone - as we do now - has learnt all the tunes and lines of a play or plays, going around whistling the equivalent songs from Fiddler on the Roof we find in the alleged "hymns" scattered throughout the new testament? A friend's child at the age of four could recite the Lion King word perfectly! Might the Lord's Prayer be a carefully thought through communal theatrical experience originally as it is enacted in every church throughout the world?

Why do we assume a switch of mode from a guy preaching to the current rituals of churches? Might they be original features? Might Q be a script of a play or plays?

Might we be able to work out the original music? If I sing....

If we have interpreted things through biased Arabic ideas - who did not understand theatre - we are very probably missing the plot.

And who named the books of the New Testament? Why is Acts called Acts?

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12-29-2007, 03:20 AM	#14
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	GMark reads very similarly to a modern Hollywood storybook. Rapid cuts from one scene to the next, building up the story line. There also seem to be anomalous narratives, filler lines, as if a later editor has expanded things, added in explanations. Has anyone looked at Mark in these terms? http://pirates.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate...ovie_Storybook

01-01-2008, 05:17 AM	#20
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I wonder if several Gordian knots may be slashed through with Ockham's Gillette improved razors by seriously looking at the New Testament from a theatrical perspective. It does feel as if the translations we have have lost the "plot" by "playing" down the significance of theatre in communicating ideas. Theatre and ritual and symbol are inextricably linked. As humans, we work and learn multi sensorily. Humans have known this since the year dot - grave goods, red ochre as decoration, cave paintings. Why any need for an oral tradition if everyone - as we do now - has learnt all the tunes and lines of a play or plays, going around whistling the equivalent songs from Fiddler on the Roof we find in the alleged "hymns" scattered throughout the new testament? A friend's child at the age of four could recite the Lion King word perfectly! Might the Lord's Prayer be a carefully thought through communal theatrical experience originally as it is enacted in every church throughout the world? Why do we assume a switch of mode from a guy preaching to the current rituals of churches? Might they be original features? Might Q be a script of a play or plays? Might we be able to work out the original music? If I sing.... If we have interpreted things through biased Arabic ideas - who did not understand theatre - we are very probably missing the plot. And who named the books of the New Testament? Why is Acts called Acts?

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