Jolly_Penguin

It all depends on how we classify the unborn entity.

If that unborn entity is our equal and deserving of our compassion and care as much as a born human is then to kill it is the same as murder and should be punished accordingly. A woman who has an abortion would be a murderer, plan and simple.

If that unborn entity is not our equal it is not deserving of said protections and abortion is a personal choice for the woman and is nobody else's business.

Perhaps there is a middle ground where we consider the entity in the womb half-deserving of our compassion and care. I don't know.

I certainly can't bring myself to care at all about a freshly fertilized egg cell. And then on the other hand I can't comprehend allowing somebody to abort an about to be born baby and not sending them to jail for it.

Where exactly the one becomes the other I'm not sure.

fast

I think it's an ugly affair indeed to stand idly by and allow such evil to occur without stepping in and using our might to stop a wrong of such distaste, yet at the same time, I feel compelled to resist the urge to interfere with such personal and private affairs of others.

You may be right, and perhaps those that dare to commit such acts of deprivation should be put in their place and shown that such behavior will not be tolerated.

I suppose such a scenario is beyond the scope of this thread, but it does give one pause (well, a few anyway) when trying to weigh the different aspects of the issue.

Jolly_Penguin

Murder prohibitions usually deal with personal and private affairs of others. Just because its a private and highly emotional event in the murderer's life doesn't mean we should not punish her, for if it did then we'd have to excuse most other murderers as well.

BolshyFaker

Of course you can think abortion is wrong and be 'pro-choice'!!!!

You can think the same thing about homosexuality, taking drugs, drinking alcohol, using pornography, going to stripclubs, prostitution, stem cell research, IVF, blood transfusions etc etc etc.

All you need for this is to support the more basic idea that it is not the state's job to enforce any particular morality. And that is an idea with a huge amount of support.

Therefore you can make the statement: "I believe abortion is wrong, but I support the right of each woman to make a moral choice about her body and her fetus/unborn child". Which isn't contradictory at all, but a very sound position. :wave:

J-D

In that table, yes. I would bet good money that not one of those candidates has ever said 'I support abortion'. That is just the way the compilers of that table have chosen to label them.

Similarly, if you don't like the idea of describing yourself as 'supporting abortion', then don't. Describe your own position in your own words. And look for candidates who seem to come closest to that. Don't worry about oversimplifying labels.

aether

As Toto pointed out, there is no difference in abortion rates in countries where it is legal compared to counties where it is illegal. The only difference in abortion rates appears to come from availability of contraception. Rates were lowest in western Europe and highest in countries with restricted access to contraceptive services. According to the Lancet 1/4 of women age 15 to 19 who have illegal abortions will die from them. So it looks like this study proves what I have always said: Outlawing abortion will not stop it, it will only kill more women.

In response to the OP. I think most people who are pro-choice still think it is immoral, but it is a necessary evil. I would be shocked if you found one person who would say 'I like abortions', even the most vehement pro-choice of us, still think it is much too common. Women have found ways to abort unwanted pregnancies for thousand of years and it certainly won't end anytime soon. The best way to decrease abortion rates is though contraception and upholding women's rights. It also proves just how stupid these abstinence programs are.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/wo...=1&oref=slogin


The Lancet article (you may have to register to view it)
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...1575X/fulltext

Starshark

That'll teach those stupid women that they're supposed to be baby-making machines, whether the child is wanted or not. What's that? You say there's a causal link between unwanted children and crime? Well, I've got a book here you should read, it's called The Bible...

Lugubert

The teenage abortion rate in Sweden in internationally low, but has been rising for a few years. I don't know if telling is illegal, but at least there is no demand that guardians approve or even that they be informed of an underage girl's applying for abortion. The authorities mention that extra care will be needed to support the girl during the process.

Finland has IIRC seen a substantial decrease in abortion rates. I think that they have a successful awareness program aimed at youngsters, but so far, Sweden seems to have been slow in investigating it and copying the success.

If abortion is "wrong" is a matter only for the girl/woman concerned. She will suffer the consequences either way.

doghouse

[QUOTE=Koyaanisqatsi;4862447]No they don't (at least not the mainstream pro-lifers). Just because they want a fetus to have a right to not be aborted does not mean they want to afford a fetus all the rights of citizenship.

We have laws against abusing animals but that doesn't mean animals have all the rights of a citizen.

fast

An unborn fetus is apart of her, and so that significantly sets the compared situations apart as well. I said, “I feel compelled to resist the urge to interfere WITH SUCH personal and private affairs of others.” I acknowledge that something being a personal and private affair doesn’t necessarily pave the road for pardon, but with such situations that are clearly different and so set apart from other situations need not be painted with the same broad brush.

Anyhow, I just don’t want to give off the impression that I think murder of people (that have been born) ought not be prohibited if it so happened to be a personal or private affair.

There has to be limits, and like you implied, where that line sits is controversial.