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Huon · 06-09-2008, 06:39 AM

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Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Can you see Constantine dictating that part to the scribe of P46, dated to about 200?

Ben.

I am not sure that P46 contains this part of Romans, that is Romans 13:1-4. I have not seen that in a description of P46. Ben, you have a good knowledge of the question, could you verify ?

Looking at wiki, Papyrus P46, I was linked to Michigan University. They say that Romans 13 exists in P46. So, no need to verify. About 200, some Christians at least were tamed by the Roman Empire.

Zucco · 06-09-2008, 07:38 AM

How do modern literalists explain this passage? It seems to state that all governments have been established by God. Wouldn't this include the Nazis, Saddam's Ba'aths, and the Taliban?

aa5874 · 06-09-2008, 07:39 AM

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Originally Posted by Chaupoline

It is better to try to work with the system instead of fighting back in a violent rebellion. Herod's Temple was destroyed because of the rebellion of the Zealots. The Indo-Fijians will eventually become an accepted part of Fijian life in the future of a prosperous Fiji because they are working with the system regardless of all the crap that they have had to endure up until now. The Tamils have not made life better for the Sri Lankan Tamils or the Indian Tamils with their violent attacks against the government of Sri Lanka. The average Palestinian's life is not better off because of the violence against Israel perpetrated by the PLO. The only ones whom benefit from the violent uprisings are the elites who are promoting the uprisings. Violence and war destroys infrastructure and brings about setbacks to progress. Black people in America are better off because their ancestors worked with the system and staged peaceful protests for change. If nobody had opposed Roman rule and instead attempted to work with the government the world would be better off today.

Based on your view, then, America would be a better place if they had not fought the British. And the World would have been a better place if no-one fought against Germany in WWII.

I think your position appears to be flawed.

DrZoidberg · 06-09-2008, 07:44 AM

Context guys. Paul lived in a Roman oppressive police state. This cannot be interpreted straight up, because we know he didn't believe it that way. He was oppressed by the state for his opinions.

The context might be lost. I'm no friend of Christianity. But lets not attribute qualities to them that they don't have.

Zucco · 06-09-2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrZoidberg

Context guys. Paul lived in a Roman oppressive police state. This cannot be interpreted straight up, because we know he didn't believe it that way.

You and I know that, but I'm asking about innerists -- those who believe each and every word of the Bible is literally true and that modern christians should obey those words. How do they explain this passage? If it's literally true, no government should ever be overthrown -- they are God's creations.

mikumiku · 06-09-2008, 08:06 AM

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Originally Posted by karlmarx

That passage is obviously a God-send to the established ruling authorities, and so clearly socially reactionary, that I wonder whether vested interests had a hand in it. I'd be keen to hear what others have to say about it - whether it's genuine, and if so, what on earth drove Paul to write this. I can just imagine Constantine hearing about this passage and wetting his pants in excitement.

The world is designed with such laws that power concentrates, in one species, in one race, in one nation, in one leader, in one G8d. Obviously people will oppose this and try to revolt, but time and again history shall repeat itself, and leaders will do as they please.

Evil? There is no evil, but that which you see as evil is good in the eyes of others. I see pain and suffering as an exchange of information, it be the reason why I can take indefinite amounts of it. Should the leaders chosen by G8d be restricted by man? Of course not, they will cleanse the lands and shape them as they see fit, as they've been given power by the world. The world be composed of ideas and information, when power concentrates it is the will of the fundamental units of the world manifesting itself, it is democracy at a higher level which men fail to comprehend.

EL giveth power and El taketh away. Any nation or group of people that deviate from the law shall be punished, even the chosen ones to first spread the word, are not exempt from El's will. We saw what happened to Israel, but just as g8d did so unto that state, its temple and its people, so too did he allow it to be rebuilt once more.

aa5874 · 06-09-2008, 08:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Zucco

How do modern literalists explain this passage? It seems to state that all governments have been established by God. Wouldn't this include the Nazis, Saddam's Ba'aths, and the Taliban?

Origen in "Against Celsus" written around 200 CE encouraged Christians to revolt from goverments that are despoctic and also asked Christians not to abide by their unholy laws, the laws of the devil.

Origen, in effect, completely contradicts Romans 13.

Against Celsus book1.1

Quote:

.....Since then he babbles about the public law, alleging that associations of the Christians are in violation of it, we have to reply, that if a man were placed among Scythians, whose laws were unholy, and having no means of escape, were compelled to live among them, such an one would with GOOD REASON, for the sake of the law of truth, which the Scythian would regard as wickedness, enter into associations CONTRARY to their laws, with those like-minded with himself; so, if truth is to decide, the laws of the heathens which relate to IMAGES, and an atheistical POLYTHEISM, are Sycthian laws, or more impious than these, if there be any such.

It is NOT irrational, then, to form associations in OPPOSTION to existing laws, if done FOR the sake of the truth.

For as those persons would do well who should enter into a secret association in order to put death a tyrant who had seized upon the liberties of a state, so Christians also, when tyrannized over him who is called the DEVIL, and by falsehood, form leagues CONTRARY to the laws of the devil, AGAINST his POWER, and FOR THE SAFETY of those others whom they may succeed in persuading to REVOLT from a government which is, as it were, Scythian, and DESPOCTIC.

So, Origen in Against Celsus, written around the 3rd century, thought some goverments are of the Devil, with laws of the Devil and should not be obeyed by Christians, and Origen clearly identifies laws related to Images and Polytheism should not be not observed by Christians.

Now the Roman government was pagan, and worsip of Images and Polytheism was prevalent, so Origen would have encouraged Christians to form associations in OPPOSITION to these laws of the Devil.

Origen probably never read or saw Romans 13. Or perhaps Romans 13 was written the very same day Origen died.

Ben C Smith · 06-09-2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

I am not sure that P46 contains this part of Romans, that is Romans 13:1-4. I have not seen that in a description of P46. Ben, you have a good knowledge of the question, could you verify ?

Looking at wiki, Papyrus P46, I was linked to Michigan University. They say that Romans 13 exists in P46. So, no need to verify. About 200, some Christians at least were tamed by the Roman Empire.

I simply saw a variant from P46 in Romans 13.1, the very verse in question, in the apparatus of my Greek NT. Thanks for checking to make sure, though.

Ben.

DrZoidberg · 06-09-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zucco

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrZoidberg

Context guys. Paul lived in a Roman oppressive police state. This cannot be interpreted straight up, because we know he didn't believe it that way.

You and I know that, but I'm asking about innerists -- those who believe each and every word of the Bible is literally true and that modern christians should obey those words. How do they explain this passage? If it's literally true, no government should ever be overthrown -- they are God's creations.

Who cares what the Bible actually says or the actual wording? The Christians will only see what they want to see in that book. I'd argue that not even the most fundamentalist of fundamentalists gives a rats ass about the actual wording. They might convince themselves that they do, but... both you and me knows it's bollocks.

Attacking it is just a waste of time. It's a moving target.

Zucco · 06-09-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrZoidberg

Who cares what the Bible actually says or the actual wording? The Christians will only see what they want to see in that book.

Yes, I understand it's all bullshit. I was just curious if there was a standard apologetic position on this particular verse. Or do they just ignore it?

Since I live in an area in which the highest accolade one can receive is being described as a "good christian", I find it valuable to keep up with these kinds of issues. My in-laws are always ready for a battle.

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06-09-2008, 07:38 AM	#22
Zucco Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Beautiful, crime-free Flower Mound, TX Posts: 156	How do modern literalists explain this passage? It seems to state that all governments have been established by God. Wouldn't this include the Nazis, Saddam's Ba'aths, and the Taliban?

06-09-2008, 07:44 AM	#24
DrZoidberg Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 5,746	Context guys. Paul lived in a Roman oppressive police state. This cannot be interpreted straight up, because we know he didn't believe it that way. He was oppressed by the state for his opinions. The context might be lost. I'm no friend of Christianity. But lets not attribute qualities to them that they don't have.

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