Toto

The use of the so-called beta code is common among NT Greek users, or was before unicode became more widespread.

Your translation does not differ from what has been discussed, except that you have come up with the idea that a miscarriage could be expelled too late (not the usual situation in a miscarriage) and therefore έκτρωμα could simply mean that Paul was born too late. I doubt that this is within the range of meaning for that word. Do you have some specific reference that would support this?

There is some knowledgeable discussion in the previous threads on the shades of meaning for έκτρωμα, from various points of view. It was generally felt that the term was an insult, or self-deprecating, or referred to an abomination, or to being born dead. Simply being born in a normal manner, but a few years too late, does not seem to be an option.

LegionOnomaMoi

Then how does one transliterate eta? With an "h"? If so, then how does one represent rough breathing diacritics? For example, the common greek article ho is, in the greek alphabet, represented only by one letter: omicron. It is transliterated ho because of the rough breathing diacritic indicating an "h" sound before the omicron. There is no "h" letter in the greek alphabet, and the only letter which looks like an "h" is the greek eta. So, in "beta code," how would one represent something as common as the masculine nominative article?



I gave you my references. In english, there is one standard lexicon for ancient greek (just as there is one for ancient greek grammar): the LSJ. However, specialists in early christian studies, NT studies, and koine greek produced their own reference works specific to the dialect of the NT. The standard lexicon is the BDAG. The LSJ covers ancient Greek through koine greek, but the BDAG is specific to this period. Both sources give "untimely" as a possible sense of the word. The BDAG specifically states the word can mean "birth beyond term"


Are you familiar with linguistic research into metaphor or semantic shifts? For example, the work of Joan Bybee, George Lakoff, Ronald Langacker, and other linguists whose expertise is either language change, metaphor, or polysemy? English tends to create new words readily with fairly specific meanings. German, French, Italian, and other Indo-European languages tend to extend the meanings of words already in the lexicon, via different methods. German, for example, relies heavily on compounds. Ancient greek is quite the opposite of English. Rather than create new words, the same word could have have any number of "senses" supplied both by inflectional form and context. Paul was clearly not "miscarried." Yet the sense of the insult is a metaphorical mapping of a "untimely/wrong" birth onto an individual whose birth was quite normal. I see no reason to think that it is improbable that the same type of metaphorical extension could not imply that his birth was untimely. I don't think this is the most likely reading, but it is certainly plausible.

Doug Shaver

You haven't covered even one yet. You have not provided a speck of evidence for mainstream scholarship having busted any of the propositions you referred to.

Doug Shaver

Uh huh. Wikipedia says it; you believe it; that settles it.

Good to know.

Toto

Do you have a problem with clicking on links? Beta_code answers all of your questions.

Yes, also with ad hoc arguments.

In context, it is not at all plausible.

outhouse

Your free to edit wiki

but only if you have valid source material, good luck with that :Cheeky:

LegionOnomaMoi

It's not so much the links but having used Perseus as an undergrad that I have a problem with. First, in beta code, ektroma would be e)/k-trwma .Second, it's not designed for readability (which is why this is the first time I've seen it used rather than transliteration for anything but computer readability). menin aeide thea Peleiadeo Achileos seems to me a lot more readable than mh=nin a)/eide qea\*phlhi+a/dew *)axilh=os


If you were familiar with the research then your use of "ad hoc" seems had to understand.


Can you read ancient greek?

Toto

Legion - you are coming in at the end of a long discussion, but you don't seem to want to read the beginning.

There are no ancient examples that would indicate the usage of "born normally but too late" is even remotely possible. You have constructed an unlikely explanation that would save Will Durant from the charge of making a simple mistake.

If you are happy with that, I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

LegionOnomaMoi

I actually participated in the beginning of this particular thread:


Well let's see. One of the earliest greek lexicographers (Hesychius of Alexandria) explains Paul's use here as meaning paidon nekron aoron. Quite literally, a child untimely dead. Almost exclusively the term (along with aoros) referred to children born to early. But, for example, in the Cairo Papyri we see the related verb used to mean a child dead through violent means. As for the reading "untimely" to mean "born to late" in Paul, Nickelsburg's paper on the subject in the Harvard Theological Review (1986) disagrees with this interpretations, but lists it as one of the main four. Hasselbrook's Studies in New Testament Lexicography discusses the term and the debate (and it's history) at some length. The idea that the term is used metaphorically here is quite obvious. Everyone accepts that. But how? Hasselbrook lists the metaphorical usage of the term in Philo, Palladius, Tzetzes, Theodorus Syncellus, Theoleptus Philadelphiensis, etc. Tzetzes in particular has been used to support the idea of an insult. Yet Louw-Nida's 1989 Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains still argues that as Paul was not metaphorically born prematurely, the use here is born late. The BDAG likewise lists this as a possible reading. So as the most common use of the term doesn't apply, what metaphorical usage are you using and based on what understanding of which ancient texts?

Will Durant isn't the only one arguing for this interpretation. It is still found in the most current lexicons, and Louw-Nida argues not that this is a possible reading but the most likely.

Toto

I meant, of course, the discussion of untimely / έκτρωμα

So far so good.

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (or via: amazon.co.uk) can be previewed on Amazon, so we can see the reasoning:

Thanks for proving my point. Louw and Nida have decided what the passage must mean, based on reading the events of Acts into Paul's letters, and have redefined έκτρωμα to fit their presumptions, with no support from ancient usage.

Please read the archives. I favor Mead's explanation.

So Will Durant is not the only person making this error. It is still obviously wrong.