Sheshbazzar

And although there are some who have always disagreed , 'Jews' are human.

....so was the Jew that was born of a woman and born under the law, that redeems men, humans.

ApostateAbe

Yes. Even those Old Testament passages are accounts of inflictions that would take place on earth, not in any heavenly realm. The Jewish "suffering servant" was an allegory for the Jewish nation suffering at the hands of foreign empires (Babylonians and Syrians). There is no doubt that Christians made a rhetorical connection between the crucified Jesus and the suffering servant, and it still leads to a model of suffering on earth. Crucifixions, be with a cross or a plank, always happened on the earth per either in history or the myth. Why would we be inclined to think it was anything else?

ApostateAbe

I don't disagree. Contradictions in the ancient Christian writings can be strong hints of the theological dynamics. Here is how I make of it (to repeat myself):
The most fitting theological analogy they had on hand was the Jewish ritual of atoning for sins through animal sacrifice. So, they ran with it, and it worked. They still had to believe it at the same time as believing that Jesus was the Son of Man who would lead them all to the Kingdom of God. They had no choice but to believe both.

Sheshbazzar

Because E.D. has a theory.

aa5874

Aristides in his "Apology" explained what Christians believed. There is no need to guess.

The Son of God came down from heaven and LIVED in the daughter of Man.

Aristides' Apology We know EXACTLY what Jesus cult Christians believed in antiquity.

They believed the Jews KILLED the Son of God who came down from heaven and lived on earth.

Sheshbazzar

But then the story is that he first came from those 'better things' to do a job, and to perform a service for his Father.

The assignment completed and service done, he returned to his exquisite family estate to get the house all prepared for the arrival of his newly adopted family members.

outhouse

except in context

Paul only wants the next life, because Jesus is there in death.



If anything that is more evidence Paul didnt place Jesus as a celestial only deity, as the only way Paul can be with him is in death.

Sheshbazzar

This place used to be a lot more open and receptive to skeptical and competing ideas.
Now it is more concerned with establishing some patina of 'respectability', and thus is becoming transformed into a bastion of 'the status quo', 'convention' and to the maintenance of good old boys academic cliques frozen in time opinions.

jgreen44

Yes. But what did those churches believe? Did they worship a recently deceased Judean carpenter? Or a cosmic Christ?I agree. Gnosticism predates Paul's Christ.
I agree that Paul adopted the already existing idea of the Gnostic Christ.

Maybe what really bugged Pharisee Saul was the Gnostic renunciation of a physical resurrection?

"Recent studies have revised the judgment that the author of Acts was unaware of the Pauline letters. Convincing arguments have been made especially in the case of Galatians by scholars who are convinced that the author of Acts not only knew this Pauline letter but regarded it as a problem and wrote to subvert it.4 They especially call attention to the verbal and ideational similarities between Acts 15 and Galatians 2 and show how the dif-ferences may be intended to create a distance between Paul and some of his later interpreters and critics."

4 See Pervo, Dating Acts; Heikki Leppä, “Luke’s Critical Use of Galatians” (Ph. D. diss., University of Helsinki, 2002); William O. Walker, Jr., “Acts and the Pauline Corpus Reconsidered.” JSNT 24 (1985): 3-23; Walker, “Acts and the Pauline Corpus Revisited: Peter’s Speech at the Jerusalem Conference,” in Literary Studies in Luke-Acts: Essays in Honor of Joseph B. Tyson (ed. Richard P. Thompson and Thomas E. Phillips; Macon, Ga.: Mercer University Press, 1998), 77-86.

http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/actapo358006.shtml
See above.

True. I was alluding to the fact that Acts portrays Jesus as a recently deceased Judean. I apologize for the confusion.

Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. (Acts 2)

On that we agree.

So Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 are 3rd century interpolations? Or are you saying that Matthew and Mark were not written until the 3rd century despite Irenaeus announcing them to the world in 180 AD?

Then I guess your argument is that Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 are 3rd century interpolations. I'm OK with that.

I cannot prove that Paul argued against an idea that did not arise until after he died.

jgreen44

THe following cite provides an argument for Romans 1:3 being an interpolation.
http://vridar.info/xorigins/Romans/1_2-6.htm

The Last Supper (Mark 14:17-31)

All critics recognize the seed of the last supper story in Psalm 41:9, “Even my bosom friend, in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.” Frank Kermode has traced (pp. 84-85) the logical process whereby the original, entirely and abstractly theological claim that Jesus had been “delivered up” (paredoqh, Romans 4:25) has been narratized. From God having “handed over” his son for our sins grew the idea that a human agent had “betrayed” him (same Greek word). For this purpose, in line with anti-Jewish polemic, a betrayer named Judas was created. His epithet “Iscariot” seems to denote either Ish-karya (Aramaic for “the false one)” or a pun on Issachar, “hireling” (Miller, p. 65), thus one paid to hand Jesus over to the authorities. Much of the Last Supper story is taken up with this matter because of the mention of the betrayer eating with his victim in Psalm 41.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

And sometimes in the Bible "night" is a condition experienced in the spiritual realm.

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

Revelation 7:15
Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And sometimes in the Bible "night" is a spiritual condition.

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

1 Thessalonians 5:5
You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.