Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 01-07-2012, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

Don't understand your question, sorry.
What would be his meaning for "thousands of centuries" - that's what I asked [if he ever wrote such nonsense, that is - maybe it is an "interpolation" as it were, who knows, since handwritten history is always suspicious or fraudulent - take the history of Jesus as an example].
It is impossible that that was an objectively graphic presentation to explain the existence of the Essenes.
I don't really care whether the Essenes existed or not; none of my business.
What struck me was that if they did not exist, that would be one more nice point to discredit the gospel of Jesus Christ.

How can you determine the Pliny wrote nonsense about the Essenes when you cannot say how he derived the information?

Did he get his information from the Essenes?

Did he get his information from a written source?

It is impossible for Pliny the Elder to have disqualified himself once he was reporting information that was available at the time of writing.

Ah, OK, now I understand - and you're right; it is very suspicious, anyway.

Well, it is very disturbing to me when so-called experts make blatant flawed and illogical statements about Josephus.

Once Josephus was NOT the first to write about the Essenes then he could NOT have invented the sect. This so basic.

Philo, the Jew of Alexandria, wrote about the Essenes about 20 years BEFORE Josephus.

Hypothetica

Quote:

But our lawgiver trained an innumerable body of his pupils to partake in those things, who are called Essenes, being, as I imagine, honoured with this appellation because of their exceeding holiness.

And they dwell in many cities of Judaea, and in many villages, and in great and populous communities.

(11.2) And this sect of them is not an hereditary of family connexion; for family ties are not spoken of with reference to acts voluntarily performed; but it is adopted because of their admiration for virtue and love of gentleness and humanity.

(11.3) At all events, there are no children among the Essenes, no, nor any youths or persons only just entering upon manhood; since the dispositions of all such persons are unstable and liable to change, from the imperfections incident to their age, but they are all full-grown men, and even already declining towards old age, such as are no longer carried away by the impetuosity of their bodily passions, and are not under the influence of the appetites, but such as enjoy a genuine freedom, the only true and real liberty....

chorranca · 01-07-2012, 08:46 AM

Seven years ago, I read the book "Fragments of a Faith Forgotten" by GRS Mead 1900, and just checking the book now, the story of Philo is mentioned on page 66 referring to the Essenes - also page 131.
Not sure if this important book is available to read online but maybe. I didn't check.

Toto · 01-07-2012, 09:13 AM

Fragments of a Faith Forgotten - The Essenes - but his sources are Philo and Josephus (and perhaps the visions of Madame Blavatsky - you have to be careful using Theosophist works.)

Toto · 01-07-2012, 09:34 AM

Elior has not ignored Philo, and did not write that Josephus invented the Essenes. (She wrote in Hebrew, and the first news reports were mistaken.)

Here is what Elior has written: link

Quote:

The Essenes were first introduced by Philo (d. 50 CE), a first century Jewish scholar who lived in Alexandria. Philo was interested in the ideas of the Stoa and told his readers that there were more than 4,000 Essenes (Essaioi) living in villages throughout the Land of Israel. He maintained that these people had no monetary concerns, lived a very simple, modest life, did not have any earthly possessions, .... Philo did not mention any name, place, date, or historical circumstances, or any background to the consolidation of this group.

However intriguing and interesting as these descriptions might be, we can not substantiate them on any historical or philological evidence: no Hebrew or Aramaic text before the Common Era or in the first century of the Common Era reveals any data about this perfect group that lived according to the highest ideals of freedom, equality, communality, modesty, chastity and liberty. No Hebrew or Aramaic text mentioned such a faultless group numbering thousands of people spread all over the country. No Jewish source written in Hebrew or Aramaic ever mentioned the existence of this celibate group that lived in opposition to the biblical commandment which demanded marriage and procreation from all members of Jewish society. No Hebrew source mentions a group that rejected slavery, denounced weapons, and resented commerce. No Hebrew or Aramaic source is familiar with the word Essenes or Essaioi.

...

The second witness, Pliny the Elder (d. 79 CE), relates in some few lines that the Essenes do not marry, possess no money (like Philo), and existed for thousands of generations. Unlike Philo, who did not mention any particular geographical location of the Essenes other than the whole land of Israel, Pliny mentioned Ein Gedi, next to the Dead Sea, as their residence. However, there is no room next to Ein Gedi for thousands of people and there is no word in the Hebrew language that refers to any of the above . . .

<snip details from Jospephus>

... It seems to me that this is a description of an ideal society in Utopia that Philo had imagined, and not a real society in the land of Israel in the first century CE. Pliny and Josephus were fascinated with this ideal of a holy community that respects the elderly and frees the slaves, cherishes equality and freedom, and has contempt for the values of the mundane world.

Read more at the link.

chorranca · 01-07-2012, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Fragments of a Faith Forgotten - The Essenes - but his sources are Philo and Josephus (and perhaps the visions of Madame Blavatsky - you have to be careful using Theosophist works.)

Great, thanks for the links.

Yes, I tend not to believe more than a little these religious stories.
My reference are the canonical gospels: if they are saturated with superstitions, tales & folklore, what could stories of Pliny or Philo or Josephus contained that had to be fully believed?
Handwritten "history" was easy to change when copying the texts.
As a matter of curiosity, how old is the oldest copy of Antiquities of the Jews?

Toto · 01-07-2012, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

....
As a matter of curiosity, how old is the oldest copy of Antiquities of the Jews?

IIRC it dates to about the 10th century.

chorranca · 01-07-2012, 09:40 AM

If the sect practiced celibacy, how would they perpetuate their existence?
If by proselytising alone, some time the nation would not have enough people to convert to their movement!
Weird.
Am I wrong?

aa5874 · 01-07-2012, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

If the sect practiced celibacy, how would they perpetuate their existence?
If by proselytising alone, some time the nation would not have enough people to convert to their movement!
Weird.
Am I wrong?

How difficult is it to have ALL MALE organisations?

Soon, there will be NO NFL and MALE Soccer players!!??

Chili · 01-07-2012, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

If the sect practiced celibacy, how would they perpetuate their existence?
If by proselytising alone, some time the nation would not have enough people to convert to their movement!
Weird.
Am I wrong?

It is not a sect but the real Israel on earth like an Elysium for the Jew and obviously is as old as Judaism is. They do not proselytise and is where religious movement comes to an end, like Patmos was for John after his Peter was defrocked.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-07-2012, 08:46 AM	#12
chorranca Banned Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Right Here; before was Over There. Posts: 347	Seven years ago, I read the book "Fragments of a Faith Forgotten" by GRS Mead 1900, and just checking the book now, the story of Philo is mentioned on page 66 referring to the Essenes - also page 131. Not sure if this important book is available to read online but maybe. I didn't check.

01-07-2012, 09:13 AM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Fragments of a Faith Forgotten - The Essenes - but his sources are Philo and Josephus (and perhaps the visions of Madame Blavatsky - you have to be careful using Theosophist works.)

01-07-2012, 09:40 AM	#17
chorranca Banned Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Right Here; before was Over There. Posts: 347	If the sect practiced celibacy, how would they perpetuate their existence? If by proselytising alone, some time the nation would not have enough people to convert to their movement! Weird. Am I wrong?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.