FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-20-2013, 05:49 PM   #251
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
first tanya/avi, and now aa5874, can point to the word Greek in a passage in Philo and claim that as evidence that the therapeutae included Greeks
Tanya misread the reference to earlier Greek philosophers, but this one clearly states that the Therapeuts included many from Greece and all parts of Egypt but not necessarily that they were Greek or Egyptian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philo
..[therapeuts] may be met with in... both Greece and ... [Egypt]... there is the greatest number of [therapeuts] in Egypt, in every one of the districts... from all quarters
Now, could Philo's term "all quarters" reflect the division of Alexandria into quarters? If so we have another indication of the therapeut multicultural identity.

I have to thank Stephan Huller for prompting me to re-read DM Murdock's superb scholarly analysis of the Therapeuts in her groundbreaking book Christ in Egypt. I see Stephan accepts Joan Taylor as a scholarly source. Murdock cites Taylor's statement that "in Magnesia ad Sipylum the devotees of Serapis and Isis are called therapeuts." (CIE p442) It is clear the therapeuts transformed the Serapis cult into Christianity by adding in Judaism to the existing Greco-Egyptian mix.
Robert Tulip is offline  
Old 01-20-2013, 06:26 PM   #252
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
I don't know where she got the Samaritans, but otherwise Murdock is clear that these were Jews, although she speculates about Buddhist influence and lists some practices that resemble sun worship. But these were Jews who had absorbed some of the surrounding culture, not a union of Jews and pagans.

I can't figure out what the dispute is about. Pete started this thread in an attempt to show that the history of a pagan group had been hijacked to become part of early Christian history. But there is no evidence that the standard analysis is not correct - that the Therapeutae were a Jewish group whose history was hijacked by Eusebius to be part of early Christian history. I would think that this would be satisfactory for his theory of Christian origins.
Your assertions are completely unsupported. You have NOT even presented any supporting evidence from the text itself.

Your convenient acceptance of Murdoch's opinion is NOT evidence at all. I am not interested in opnion. I want to see actual evidence from the text.

Again, Toto, Philo NEVER claimed the Therapeutae were Jews and NEVER even mentioned that Jews or Jewish people were Therapeutae.

Read the ENTIRE Text. The Therapeutae are Citizens of the World.

On the Contemplative Life
Quote:
This then is what I have to say of those who are called therapeutae, who have devoted themselves to the contemplation of nature, and who have lived in it and in the soul alone, being citizens of heaven and of the world, and very acceptable to the Father and Creator of the universe because of their virtue, which has procured them his love as their most appropriate reward, which far surpasses all the gifts of fortune, and conducts them to the very summit and perfection of happiness.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 01-20-2013, 07:41 PM   #253
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

The gospel according to Acharya. Nonsense, pure nonsense. Read the damn account of Philo. Why shouldn't this be a debate about Philo and what is possible with Philo. There is absolutely nothing about Serapis or Isis nor could there have been. Philo's use of therapeutai in that text is no different than in other works as Taylor clearly lays the groundwork for us. They are undoubtedly Levites or Simeonites or people who thought they were one or the other - perhaps allegorically. I have Philo's use of the terminology on my side and you have - well ...
stephan huller is offline  
Old 01-20-2013, 08:48 PM   #254
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Taylor's and Acharya's opinion are NOT evidence at all.

It is the writings of Philo that provide the evidence.

Nowhere is it claimed the Therapeutae were Simeonites or Levites--Nowhere.

Again, the text does not state anywhere at all that the Therapeutae were Jews and never claimed that the Therapeutae were circumcised or practised circumcision.


The Therapeutae had their OWN Scripture and Philosophy.

On the Contemplative Life
Quote:
Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good; and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt, in every one of the districts, or nomi as they are called, and especially around Alexandria; (22) and from all quarters those who are the best of these therapeutae proceed on their pilgrimage to some most suitable place as if it were their country...
On the Contemplative Life
Quote:
They have also writings of ancient men, who having been the founders of one sect or another have left behind them many memorials of the allegorical system of writing and explanation, whom they take as a kind of model, and imitate the general fashion of their sect...
On the Contemplative Life
Quote:
...But the therapeutic sect of mankind, being continually taught to see without interruption, may well aim at obtaining a sight of the living God, and may pass by the sun, which is visible to the outward sense, and never leave this order which conducts to perfect happiness...
On the Contemplative Life
Quote:
And the interval between morning and evening is by them devoted wholly to meditation on and to practice of virtue, for they take up the sacred scriptures and philosophise concerning them, investigating the allegories of their national philosophy, since they look upon their literal expressions as symbols of some secret meaning of nature, intended to be conveyed in those figurative expressions.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 01-20-2013, 09:02 PM   #255
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

I will demonstrate at a future time that Philo's (idealized) understanding of the Levi and Simeon corresponds to the explicit distinction between Essaioi and Therapeutai. But that is for another time and another place. The bottom line here is that Philo is discussion a Jewish community meaning a community which adhered to the Jewish religion as they interpreted it. You acknowledge that Philo was Jewish correct?
stephan huller is offline  
Old 01-20-2013, 09:28 PM   #256
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

Philo's reference to the term 'Jew' or 'Jewish'

Quote:
these men, to whose virtue the Jewish legislation bears testimony (On the Posterity of Cain 40)

And one may wonder at the kind of narration which the Jewish lawgiver frequently employs in many instances (51)

I have conceived the idea of writing the life of Moses, who, according to the account of some persons, was the lawgiver of the Jews (On the Life of Moses 1.1)

and Moses is the seventh generation in succession from the original settler in the country who was the founder of the whole race of the Jews. (7)

for, as I have said before, the Jews were strangers in Egypt, the founders of their race having migrated from Babylon and the upper satrapies in the time of the famine (34)

Therefore the Jews had now to endure more terrible afflictions than before, and were indignant at Moses and his brother as deceivers (90)

Then one man encouraged another to drive the Jewish people with all speed out of the whole country, and not to allow them to remain one day, or rather one single hour, looking upon every moment that they abode among them as an irremediable calamity. (139)

But this is not so entirely wonderful, although it may fairly by itself be considered a thing of great intrinsic importance, that his laws were kept securely and immutably from all time; but this is more wonderful by far, as it seems, that not only the Jews, but that also almost every other nation, and especially those who make the greatest account of virtue, have dedicated themselves to embrace and honour them, for they have received this especial honour above all other codes of laws, which is not given to any other code. (On Moses 2.17)

And that beauty and dignity of the legislation of Moses is honoured not among the Jews only, but also by all other nations, is plain, both from what has been already said and from what I am about to state. (26) In olden time the laws were written in the Chaldaean language, and for a long time they remained in the same condition as at first, not changing their language as long as their beauty had not made them known to other nations; (27) but when, from the daily and uninterrupted respect shown to them by those to whom they had been given, and from their ceaseless observance of their ordinances, other nations also obtained an understanding of them, their reputation spread over all lands; for what was really good, even though it may through envy be overshadowed for a short time, still in time shines again through the intrinsic excellence of its nature. Some persons, thinking it a scandalous thing that these laws should only be known among one half portion of the human race, namely, among the barbarians, and that the Greek nation should be wholly and entirely ignorant of them, turned their attention to their translation. (ibid 25 - 27)

(with respect to a festival which honored the translation of the Pentateuch by the Seventy each year) And there is a very evident proof of this; for if Chaldaeans were to learn the Greek language, and if Greeks were to learn Chaldaean, and if each were to meet with those scriptures in both languages, namely, the Chaldaic and the translated version, they would admire and reverence them both as sisters, or rather as one and the same both in their facts and in their language; considering these translators not mere interpreters but hierophants and prophets to whom it had been granted it their honest and guileless minds to go along with the most pure spirit of Moses. (41) On which account, even to this very day, there is every year a solemn assembly held and a festival celebrated in the island of Pharos, to which not only the Jews but a great number of persons of other nations sail across, reverencing the place in which the first light of interpretation shone forth, and thanking God for that ancient piece of beneficence which was always young and fresh. (42) And after the prayers and the giving of thanks some of them pitched their tents on the shore, and some of them lay down without any tents in the open air on the sand of the shore, and feasted with their relations and friends, thinking the shore at that time a more beautiful abode than the furniture of the king's palace. (ibid 40 - 42)

A certain man, illegitimately born of two unequal parents, namely, an Egyptian father and a Jewish mother, and who disregarded the national and hereditary customs which he had learnt from her, as it is reported, inclined to the Egyptian impiety, being seized with admiration for the ungodly practices of the men of that nation for the Egyptians, almost alone of all men, set up the earth as a rival of the heaven considering the former as entitled to honours equal with those of the gods, and giving the latter no especial honour, just as if it were proper to pay respect to the extremities of a country rather than to the king's palace. For in the world the heaven is the most holy temple, and the further extremity is the earth; though this too is in itself worthy of being regarded with honour; but if it is brought into comparison with the air, is as far inferior to it as light is to darkness, or night to day, or corruption to immortality, or a mortal to God. (195) For, since that country is not irrigated by rain as all other lands are, but by the inundations of the river which is accustomed every year to overflow its banks; the Egyptians, in their impious reason, make a god of the Nile, as if it were a copy and a rival of heaven, and use pompous language about the virtue of their country.

XXXVII. (196) Accordingly, this man of mixed race, having had a quarrel with some one of the consecrated and well-instructed house of Israel, becoming carried away by his anger, and unable to restrain himself, and being also an admirer and follower of the impiety of the Egyptians, extended his impiety from earth to heaven, cursing it with his accursed, and polluted, and defiled soul, and with his wicked tongue, and with the whole power of all his vocal organs in the superfluity of his ungodliness; though it ought to be blessed and praised, not by all men, indeed, but only by those who are most virtuous and pious, as having received perfect purification. (197) Wherefore Moses, marvelling at his insanity and at the extravagance of his audacity, although he was filled with a noble impetuosity and indignation, and desired to slay the man with his own hand, nevertheless feared lest he should be inflicting on him too light a punishment; for he conceived that no man could possibly devise any punishment adequate to such enormous impiety. (198) And since it followed of necessity that a man who did not worship God could not honour his father either, or his mother, or his country, or his benefactors, this man, in addition to not reverencing them, dared to speak ill of them (193 - 197)

(more on the fate of the man who was killed for going back to Egyptian religion) for it was invariably the custom, as it was desirable on other days also, but especially on the seventh day, as I have already explained, to discuss matters of philosophy; the ruler of the people beginning the explanation, and teaching the multitude what they ought to do and to say, and the populace listening so as to improve in virtue, and being made better both in their moral character and in their conduct through life; (216) in accordance with which custom, even to this day, the Jews hold philosophical discussions on the seventh day, disputing about their national philosophy, and devoting that day to the knowledge and consideration of the subjects of natural philosophy; for as for their houses of prayer in the different cities, what are they, but schools of wisdom, and courage, and temperance, and justice, and piety, and holiness, and every virtue, by which human and divine things are appreciated, and placed upon a proper footing? (ibid)

ow some states keep the holy festival only once in the month, counting from the new moon, as a day sacred to God; but the nation of the Jews keep every seventh day regularly, after each interval of six days (On Moses 3.96)

And he receives all persons of a similar character and disposition, whether they were originally born so, or whether they have become so through any change of conduct, having become better people, and as such entitled to be ranked in a superior class; approving of the one body because they have not defaced their nobility of birth, and of the other because they have thought fit to alter their lives so as to come over to nobleness of conduct. And these last he calls proselytes (proseµlytous), from the fact of their having come over (proseleµlythenai) to a new and Godfearing constitution, learning to disregard the fabulous inventions of other nations, and clinging to unalloyed truth. (52) Accordingly, having given equal rank and honour to all those who come over, and having granted to them the same favours that were bestowed on the native Jews, he recommends those who are ennobled by truth not only to treat them with respect, but even with especial friendship and excessive benevolence (On the Special Laws 1.51 f)

For the priests of other deities are accustomed to offer up prayers and sacrifices solely for their own relations, and friends, and fellow citizens. But the high priest of the Jews offers them up not only on behalf of the whole race of mankind, but also on behalf of the different parts of nature, of the earth, of water, of air, and of fire; and pours forth his prayers and thanksgivings for them all, looking upon the world (as indeed it really is) as his country, for which, therefore, he is accustomed to implore and propitiate its governor by supplications and prayers, beseeching him to give a portion of his own merciful and humane nature to the things which he has created. (97 - 99)

And the accuracy and minuteness of the investigation is directed not so much on account of the victims themselves, as in order that those who offer them should be irreproachable; for God designed to teach the Jews by these figures, whenever they went up to the altars, when there to pray or to give thanks, never to bring with them any weakness or evil passion in their soul, but to endeavour to make it wholly and entirely bright and clean, without any blemish, so that God might not turn away with aversion from the sight of it. (167)

The reason is that a priest has the same relation to a city that the nation of the Jews has to the entire inhabited world. For it serves as a priest--to state the truth--through the use of all purificatory offerings and the guidance both for body and soul of divine laws which have checked the pleasures of the stomach and those under the stomach and [tamed] the mob (Special Laws 2.161)

Since they slipped in the most essential matter, the nation of the Jews--to speak most accurately--set aright the false step of others by having looked beyond everything which has come into existence through creation since it is generate and corruptible in nature, and chose only the service of the ungenerate and eternal. (ibid 166)

And no Jewish shepherd will endeavour to cross a sheep with a he-goat, or a ram with a she-goat, or a cow with a horse; and if he does, he must pay the penalty as breaking a solemn law of nature who is desirous to keep the original kinds of animals free from all spurious admixture. (On the Special Laws 3.46)

And lastly, in the case of the woman who is a widow because she has been deprived of her husband, who succeeded her parents as her guardian and protector; for a husband is to his wife in point of relationship what her parents are to a virgin. (179) And one may almost say that the whole nation of the Jews may be looked upon in the light of orphans, if they are compared with all other nations in other lands; for other nations, as often as they are afflicted by any calamities which are not of divine infliction, are in no want of assistance by reason of their frequent intercourse with other nations, from their habitual dealings in common. But this nation of the Jews has no such allies by reason of the peculiarity of its laws and customs. And their laws are of necessity strict and rigorous, as they are intended to train them to the greatest height of virtue; and what is strict and rigorous is austere. And such laws and customs the generality of men avoid, because of their inclination for and their adoption of pleasure. (On Special Laws 4)

From all which it is plain that the nation of the Jews is allied with and friendly to all those who are of the same sentiments, and all who are peaceful in their intentions; and that it is not to be despised as one that submits to those who begin to treat it with injustice out of cowardice; but when it goes forth to defend itself, it distinguishes between those who are habitually plotting against it and those who are not; (225) for to be eager to slay all men, and even those who have committed but slight offences, or no offences at all against one, I should call the conduct of an inhuman and pitiless soul, as it would be also to treat women as if they were an addition to the men who carry on war, when their way of life is naturally peaceful and domestic. (ibid 224)

For whatever advantages are derived from the most approved philosophy to its students, full as great are derived by the Jews from their laws and customs, inasmuch as through them they have rejected all errors about gods who have been created themselves; for there is no created being who is truly God, but such a one is so only in appearance and opinion, being destitute of that most indispensable quality in God, namely, eternity." (On the Virtues 65)

And if any of them should be willing to forsake their old ways and to come over to the customs and constitutions of the Jews, they are not to be rejected and treated with hostility as the children of enemies, but to be received in such a manner that in the third generation they may be admitted into the assembly, and may have a share of the divine words read to them, being instructed in the will of God equally with the natives of the land, the descendants of God's chosen people. (108)

But there are also other especial rules given to the Jews besides the common ones which are applicable to all mankind; for they are derived from the original founders of the nation, to whom the virtues of their ancestors were absolutely of no benefit at all, inasmuch as they were detected in blameable and guilty actions, and were convicted, if not by any other human being, at all events by their own consciences, which is the sole tribunal in the world which is never led away by any artifices of speech. (206)

The most ancient person of the Jewish nation was a Chaldaean by birth, born of a father who was very skilful in astronomy, and famous among those men who pass their lives in the study of mathematics, who look upon the stars as gods, and worship the whole heaven and the whole world; thinking, that from them do all good and all evil proceed, to every individual among men; as they do not conceive that there is any cause whatever, except such as are included among the objects of the outward senses. (222)

We must not, therefore, give in to those persons who seek to creep stealthily into the possession of a property belonging to others, namely, nobility of birth, as though it were of right their own, and who, with the exception of those whom I have mentioned, might justly be looked upon as enemies not only of the race of the Jews but of all the human race in every quarter. Of the one because they give a truce to those of the same nation, allowing them to despise sound and stable virtue, through trusting implicitly in the virtue of their ancestors; and of the others because, even if they could attain to the highest and most absolute perfection of all excellence, they would still derive no advantage themselves, because of their not having irreproachable fathers and grandfathers. (226)

Accordingly the lawgiver of the Jews{5}{#ge 16:9.} represents the hands of the wise man as a heavy, intimating by this figurative expression the gravity of his actions, which are supported in no superficial but in a solid manner by his inflexible mind. (30) Therefore, he is not under the compulsion of any thing, as being one who despises pains, and who looks with contempt on death, and who, by the law of nature, has all foolish men for his subjects. (Every Good Man is Free 27)

But the lawgiver of the Jews ventures upon a more bold assertion even than this, inasmuch as he was, as it is reported, a student and practiser of plain philosophy; and so he teaches that the man who is wholly possessed with the love of God and who serves the living God alone, is no longer man, but actually God, being indeed the God of men, but not of the parts of nature, in order to leave to the Father of the universe the attributes of being both and God. (43)

But Zeno appears to have drawn this maxim of his as it were from the fountain of the legislation of the Jews, {9}{#ge 28:1.} in the history of which it is recorded that in a case where there were two brothers, the one temperate and the other intemperate, the common father of them both, taking pity on the intemperate one who did not walk in the path of virtue, prays that he may serve his brother, conceiving that service which appears in general to be the greatest of evils is the most perfect good to a foolish man, in order that thus he may be deprived of his independence of action, so as to be prevented from misconducting himself with impunity, and that he may be improved in his disposition by the superintending management of him who is appointed to be his master. (57)

And yet, what need is there, either of long journeys over the land, or of long voyages, for the sake of investigating the seeking out virtue, the roots of which the Creator has laid not at any great distance, but so near, as the wise lawgiver of the Jews says, {10}{#de 30:14.} "They are in thy mouth, and in thy heart, and in thy hands:" intimating by these figurative expressions the words, and actions, and designs of men; all of which stand in need of careful cultivation. (68)

Moreover Palestine and Syria too are not barren of exemplary wisdom and virtue, which countries no slight portion of that most populous nation of the Jews inhabits. There is a portion of those people called Essenes, in number something more than four thousand in my opinion, who derive their name from their piety, though not according to any accurate form of the Grecian dialect, because they are above all men devoted to the service of God, not sacrificing living animals, but studying rather to preserve their own minds in a state of holiness and purity. (76) These men, in the first place, live in villages, avoiding all cities on account of the habitual lawlessness of those who inhabit them, well knowing that such a moral disease is contracted from associations with wicked men, just as a real disease might be from an impure atmosphere, and that this would stamp an incurable evil on their souls. Of these men, some cultivating the earth, and others devoting themselves to those arts which are the result of peace, benefit both themselves and all those who come in contact with them, not storing up treasures of silver and of gold, nor acquiring vast sections of the earth out of a desire for ample revenues, but providing all things which are requisite for the natural purposes of life; (77) for they alone of almost all men having been originally poor and destitute, and that too rather from their own habits and ways of life than from any real deficiency of good fortune, are nevertheless accounted very rich, judging contentment and frugality to be great abundance, as in truth they are. (75)

But however that may be, it is exceedingly plain that the world is spoken of by Hesiod as having been created: (19) and a very long time before him Moses, the lawgiver of the Jews, had said in his sacred volumes that the world was both created and indestructible, and the number of the books is five. (On the Eternity of the World 18)

Flaccus Avillius succeeded Sejanus in his hatred of and hostile designs against the Jewish nation. (Flaccus 1 plus 35 more)

In the Apology for the Jews (Hypothetica) Eusebius introduces the text " And first of all I will adduce what Philo says respecting the journey of the Jews into Egypt, of which he has given an account, following that which is given by Moses in the first book of the Pentateuch, to which he has affixed the superscription, "hypothetically;" where, arguing in behalf of the Jews as if he were addressing himself to their accusers, he speaks in the following manner, affirming," but there are no actual references to the 'Jews' or 'Jewish' in the entire text.

Embassy to Gaius 55 references to the term.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 01-20-2013, 10:01 PM   #257
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

So I am trying to understand the objections to the accepted understanding of the Therapeutae. Are there any objections to:

1. Philo being the author of the Vita Contemplativa?
2. Philo being Jewish?
3. Jews being prohibited from worshiping foreign gods?
4. Philo being our only source of information for the Therapeutai who live near Lake Mareotis?
5. Philo connecting the Essaioi and the Therapeutai?
6. Philo identifying the Essaioi as a Jewish sect?
7. Philo approving of the Therapeutai and condemning the worship of demigods and contemporary Egyptian religion?
8. Philo only being capable of approving 'Jewish' religious forms because he is Jewish

I would just naturally put a check mark on all these statements. I am just wondering where the difficulties arise.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 01-20-2013, 10:30 PM   #258
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: middle east
Posts: 829
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller
Read the damn account of Philo. Why shouldn't this be a debate about Philo and what is possible with Philo.
No. You err. This is not a thread about Philo, the Samaritans, Alexandria, Marcion, secret Mark, or the sexual mores of elephants, i.e. your favorite "hobby horses".

No. The focus of this thread is the Origin of the Therapeutae.

The question is not "What does Philo mean", or "What does Philo write", or "Was Philo a Hellenized Jew", or anything else about PHILO....

What does Xenophon write about the Therapeutae, four hundred years before Philo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R.Smith-- Xenophon: 'Memorabilia', Boston 1903
θεραπεύω, “to do service or honor to”.
What does Hippocrates write?

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.E. Witt: Isis in the Ancient World, 1997, ISBN 978-0801856426 Page 311, footnote 28
Names that have the like ring are 'therapy' in Hippocrates (Art. 80) and 'therapeutae' (worshippers in the cult of Isis and Serapis) in VS 307.
tanya is offline  
Old 01-20-2013, 10:49 PM   #259
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: middle east
Posts: 829
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller
So I am trying to understand the objections to the accepted understanding of the Therapeutae. Are there any objections to:

1. Philo being the author of the Vita Contemplativa?
2. Philo being Jewish?
3. Jews being prohibited from worshiping foreign gods?
4. Philo being our only source of information for the Therapeutai who live near Lake Mareotis?
5. Philo connecting the Essaioi and the Therapeutai?
6. Philo identifying the Essaioi as a Jewish sect?
7. Philo approving of the Therapeutai and condemning the worship of demigods and contemporary Egyptian religion?
8. Philo only being capable of approving 'Jewish' religious forms because he is Jewish
1. not sure if he is the author or not. There is at least ONE scholarly examination of this text, which concluded (maybe a very long time ago, as in 19th century...?) that Philo was NOT the author of Vita Contemplativa. I have no opinion, personally, for I lack the education needed to make such a declaration.
2. In my uneducated opinion, Philo was a very intelligent, literate, bilingual (trilingual, Latin, quadralingual, Coptic?) Jew--a brilliant and successful intellectual, who had corresponded with the supreme leader of the Roman Empire.
3. No doubt, whatsoever. How does Stephan's list help us to understand the origin of the Therapeutae?
4. But, here you err, in my opinion. I would draw attention, again, as I have twice before, on this thread, to MSF, in our own time. Those engaged in the healing arts were not limited to Greece, or Egypt, or place xyz....They were all over the world. Surgeons and Physicians accompanied the silk route caravans, bringing with them herbs and medicinal plants: That's how Avicenna learned about medicine, writing the textbook, which, translated from Arabic to Latin became THE textbook of medicine for four centuries in France. Therapeutae, as Clive explained back on page 1 of this thread, had enormous temples, constructed, back in Greece. Their settlements extended throughout the Greek empire, including the environs of Alexandria. I have no doubt that, at the time of Philo, a large percentage, perhaps even an overwhelming majority, of the Therapeutae, living in and around Alexandria, were Jewish. So what? What does that have to do with this thread? It is another attempt to derail Pete's excellent travail on this forum.
5, 6, 7 Who cares? This is not a thread on the Essenes, or Philo.
8. Philo wrote favorably about Hercules. So, we know Philo is very well educated, and not wearing blinders, like some of us......

tanya is offline  
Old 01-20-2013, 10:49 PM   #260
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
Philo's reference to the term 'Jew' or 'Jewish'
I told you that you don't know what you are talking about.

You are the same guy that claimed ".... Philo almost never (never to my knowledge but I haven't looked) mentions the word Jew or Jewish.

There are at least 13 writings attributed to Philo where he mentioned the words 'Jew' and 'Jewish' perhaps over 100 times in total.

1. "On Embassy to Gaius"

2. "Flaccus"

3. On the Life of Moses, I

4. On the Life of Moses, II

5. The Decalogue

6. The Special Laws, I

7.The Special Laws, II

8. The Special Laws, III

9. The Special Laws, IV

10. On the Virtues

11. Every Good Man is Free

12. On the Eternity of the World.

13. Hypothetica

There is NO mention whatsoever that the Therapeutae were Jewish--NONE.

I do NOT accept your inventions as evidence.

Now, you are attempting to use 'Hypothetica' to mis-lead.

'Hypothetica' is about the Essenes a sect of Jews--NOT the Therapeutae.

It is corroborated by Josephus that the Essenes are a sect of Jews--Not the Therapeutae.

It is also claimed by Pliny the Elder that the Essenes lived to the West of the Dead Sea.
aa5874 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:59 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.