mh8782

I hope this is the correct forum (it could be politics).

I've starting reading God's Politics by Jim Wallis, and in it, he outlines his belief that Christianity should be a rather tolerant creed, that promotes peace, social justice, etc. Jim Wallis is a progressive Christian pastor. He attacks the Christian right, saying it ignores the basic teachings of Jesus.

As a moderate left-winger and atheist I can sympathise with these ideals. There's a strong tradition of Christians campaigning against the slave trade, child poverty, democracy, Christian Socialism. There is of course a long tradition of persecution by Christian fundamentalists to match this.

I recently read an article that questioned the idea that the most Christian Nation on Earth is the US, given that Europe views Christianity as a more progressive creed. I suspect most european Christians believe Jesus wouldn't be in favour of the death penalty, whereas many Christians in the US don't seem to see this.

How does Progressive Christianity sit with atheists on this board? Is it misguided? (We know that their vision of God is false, but is their vision of ethics?)

post tenebras lux

Sometimes (to me) progressive christians seem too tolerant of the intolerant christians.

This impacts me as they defend the right of bigots to not just hold their bigoted beliefs but also to act upon said beliefs: they don't realise that they're bigots so it's not their fault that they're acting like bigots.

It impacts the progressive christians as they are loath to admit that they may be associating with people who believe in a 'higher Truth' and thus allowed to 'lie for Christ' whilst seeking their cause's advancement: it is my understanding that the CofE is currently suffering from just this sort of 'fifth columnist' infiltration.

Idolator

Christianity fueled the labor reforms of the nineteenth century (in the US). It was also a powerful force both for and against the civil rights movement. The fact is that religion is a powerful influence, and if I generally happen to agree with these Christians about everything except theological issues, why should I oppose them anywhere outside of theological domains? Progressive Christianity is one of the strongest forces for human rights today, and the human rights movement is about the only one I consistently agree with; bluntly, if someone has a strange excuse to do the right thing, I don't feel particularly compelled to change that excuse.

In the interests of full disclosure, I should point out that my mother is a minister in one of those progressive churches. As an atheist, I generally ignore her God-talk, but she does seem to have the right idea (and she always makes a point of dissociating herself from "those" Christians). She has even prayed for Osama bin Laden and President Bush (both of whom she holds in low regard).

Clivedurdle

Unless I am mistaken, I thought Jim Wallis was a renowned charismatic - therefore by definition not liberal.

Is it not dishonest to state your imaginary friend, no matter how humane, is real?

jfrond

Exactly. Why do you need to mix complete delusion in with things like social justice? Why not build a society on a rational foundation rather than a delusional one?

Clivedurdle

But I saw the reindeers flying in a film and Dudley Moore was an elf!

Jesus W. Vader

Okay product-fraudelent label. When I first became an atheist, I tore some liberal Christian friends a new asshole over what I saw as their "inconsistency". The biblical test and Christian tradition are brutal and backwards. People who take benign aspects of modern ideology and slap the Christian label on it are dilletantes and not to be trusted to think clearly.

JustinFoldsFive

Though the world would be a better place if people relied on logic and reason, I, personally, do not have a problem with Christians that keep their faith to themselves. If they can practice their religion without interfering with my life, or the lives of any other non-Christians, then I have no objections. However, it becomes a problem when these Christians try to control our government and the way non-Christians live their lives. If only Christians didn't try to impose their dogmatic beliefs upon the world, I don't know if ANYONE would have a problem with Christianity. Basically, if people want to believe in an imaginary supernatural being, go for it, I choose not to. We've both made our individual choices, so let's keep it that way.

maxxmann

I think J. Wallis would agree to find the common ground and purpose and stand there with an atheist. He probably would do the same with a right-winger, but they may not with him. If on a common ground, which I think we all share regardless, we can actually do something other than argue.

maxxmann

Don't miss the fact that the film was real and the reactions of the audience was real(in that they laughed, they cried, they slept right through it). The film may have portrayed imaginary things such as flying reindeer, but it brought about the desired result, at least with some of the audience. The same can be said from a natural veiwpoint about religion. It may be proprogating imaginary things, but its effects are real and with at least people like Jim Wallis, it leads to good things done on the behalf of others.

And Dudley Moore was an elf in the film.