GakuseiDon

I mean, a parallel suggesting influence. It isn't hard to find similarities, e.g. the name "Christ" vs "Krishna", but that doesn't necessarily indicate influence.

Malachi151

I think that if there is influence, it is more subtle than that. They both have similar social and personal teachings, though obviously very different cosmologies and mythologies.

mountainman

The ancient western environment was rich in the influence
of the east ... the traditions of Shiva, and later those of
Buddha. Consider the message and influence of literature
such as the Dhammapada (and similar), as collected by
Dr Paul Carus, 1894, and published as The Gospel of Buddha.


The Dhammapada


This is the Dhammapada, the path of religion
pursued by those who are followers of the Buddha: [1]
Creatures from mind their character derive;
mind-marshalled are they, mind made.
Mind is the source either of bliss or of corruption. [2]

By oneself evil is done; by oneself one suffers;
by oneself evil is left undone; by oneself one is purified.
Purity and impurity belong to oneself,
no one can purify another. [3]

You yourself must make an effort.
The Tathagatas are only preachers.
The thoughtful who enter the way
are freed from the bondage of Mara. [4]

He who does not rouse himself when it is time to rise;
who, though young and strong, is full of sloth;
whose will and thoughts are weak;
that lazy and idle man
will never find the way to enlightenment. [5]

If a man hold himself dear, let him watch himself carefully;
the truth guards him who guards himself. [6]

If a man makes himself as he teaches others to be,
then, being himself subdued, he may subdue others;
one's own self is indeed difficult to subdue. [7]

If some men conquer in battle
a thousand times a thousand men,
and if another conquer himself,
he is the greatest of conquerors. [8]

It is the habit of fools,
be they laymen or members of the clergy, to think,
"this is done by me. May others be subject to me.
In this or that transaction a prominent part should be played by me."
Fools do not care for the duty to be performed or the aim to be reached,
but think of their self alone.
Everything is but a pedestal of their vanity. [9]

Bad deeds, and deeds hurtful to ourselves, are easy to do;
what is beneficial and good, that is very difficult. [10]

If anything is to be done, let a man do it,
let him attack it vigorously! [11]

Before long, alas! this body will lie on the earth,
despised, without understanding, like a useless log;
yet our thoughts will endure.
They will be thought again, and will produce action.
Good thoughts will produce good actions,
and bad thoughts will produce bad actions. [12]

Earnestness is the path of immortality,
thoughtlessness the path of death.
Those who are in earnest do not die;
those who are thoughtless are as if dead already. [13]

Those who imagine they find truth in untruth, and see untruth in truth,
will never arrive at truth, but follow vain desires.
They who know truth in truth, and untruth in truth,
arrive at truth, and follow true desires. [14]

As rain breaks through an ill-thatched house,
passion will break through an unreflecting mind.
As rain does not break through a well-thatched house,
passion will not break through a well-reflecting mind. [15]

Well-makers lead the water wherever they like;
fletchets bend the arrow;
carpenters bend a log of wood;
wise people fashion themselves;
wise people falter not amidst blame and praise.
Having listened to the law, they become serene,
like a deep, smooth , and still lake. [16]

If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought,
pain follows him as the wheel follows the foot of an ox that draws the carriage. [17]

An evil deed is better left undone,
for a man will repent of it afterwards;
a good deed is better done,
for having done it one will not repent. [18]

If a man commits a wrong let him not do it again;
let him not delight in wrongdoing;
pain is the outcome of evil.
If a man does what is good, let him do it again;
let him delight in it;
happiness is the outcome of good. [19]

Let no man think lightly of evil,
saying in his heart,
"It will not come nigh unto me."
As by the falling of water-drops a water-pot is filled,
so the fool becomes full of evil,
though he gather it little by little. [20]

Let no man think lightly of good, saying in his heart,
"It will not come nigh unto me."
As by the falling of water-drops a water-pot if filled,
so the wise man becomes full of good,
though he gather it little by little. [21]

He who lives for pleasure only, his senses uncontrolled,
immoderate in his food, idle, and weak,
him Mara, the tempter, will certainly overthrough,
as the wind throws down a weak tree.
He who lives without looking for pleasures, his senses well-controlled,
moderate in his food, faithful and strong,
him Mara will certainly not overthrow,
any more than the wind throws down a rocky mountain. [22]

The fool who knows his foolishness, is wise at least so far.
But a fool who thinks himself wise, he is a fool indeed. [23]

To the evil-doer wrong appears sweet as honey;
he looks upon it as pleasant so long as it bears no fruit;
but when its fruit ripens, then he looks upon it as wrong.
And so the good man looks upon the goodness of the Dharma
as a burden and an evil so long as it bears no fruit;
but when its fruit ripens, then he sees its goodness. [24]

A hater may do great harm to a hater, or an enemy to an enemy;
but a wrongly-directed mind will do greater mischief unto itself.
A mother, a father, or any other relative will do much good;
but a well-directed mind will do greater service unto itself. [25]

He whose wickedness is very great brings himself down
to that state where his enemy wishes him to be.
He himself is his greatest enemy.
Thus a creeper destroys the life of a tree on which it finds support. [26]

Do not direct thy thought to what gives pleasure,
that thou mayest not cry out when burning, "This is pain."
The wicked man burns by his own deeds, as if burnt by fire. [27]

Pleasures destroy the foolish;
the foolish man by his thirst for pleasures
destroys himself as if he were his own enemy.
The fields are damaged by hurricanes and weeds;
mankind is damaged by passion,
by hatred, by vanity, and by lust. [28]

Let no man ever take into consideration
whether a thing is pleasant or unpleasant.
The love of pleasure begets grief
and the dread of pain causes fear;
he who is free from the love of pleasure
and the dread of pain knows neither grief nor fear. [29]

He who gives himself to vanity, and does not give himself to meditation,
forgetting the real aim of life and grasping at pleasure,
will in time envy him who has exerted himself in meditation. [30]

The fault of others is easily noticed,
but that of oneself is difficult to perceive.
A man winnows his neighbor's faults like chaff,
but his own fault he hides,
as a cheat hides the false die from the gambler. [31]

If a man looks after the faults of others,
and is always inclined to take offence,
his own passions will grow,
and he is far from the destruction of passions. [32]

Not about the perversities of others,
not about their sins of commision or omission,
but about his own misdeeds and negligences alone
should a sage be worried. [33]

Good people shine from afar, like the snowy mountains;
bad people are concealed, like arrows shot by night. [34]

If a man by causing pain to others,
wishes to obtain pleasure for himself,
he, entangled in the bonds of selfishness,
will never be free from hatred. [35]

Let a man overcome anger by love,
let him overcome evil by good;
let him overcome the greedy by liberality,
the liar by truth! [36]

For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time;
hatred ceases by not-hatred, this is an old rule. [37]

Speak the truth,
do not yield to anger;
give, if thou art asked;
by these three steps thou will become divine. [38]

Let a wise man blow off impurities of his self,
as a smith blows off the impurities of silver,
one by one, little by little, and from time to time. [39]

Lead others, not by violence,
but by righteousness and equity. [40]

He who possesses virtue and intelligence,
who is just, speaks the truth,
and does what is his own business,
him the world will hold dear. [41]

As the bee collects nectar
and departs without injuring the flower
or its color or scent,
so let a sage dwell in the community. [42]

If a traveller does not meet with one
who is his better, or his equal,
let him firmly keep to his solitary journey;
there is no companionship with fools. [43]

Long is the night to him who is awake;
long is a mile to him who is tired;
long is life to the foolish who do not know the truth religion. [44]

Better than living a hundred years, not seeing the highest truth,
is one day in the life of a man who sees the highest truth. [45]>p? Some form their Dharma arbitrarily
and fabricate it artificially;
they advance complex speculations
and imagine that good results are attainable
only by the acceptance of their theories;
yet the truth is but one;
there are not different truths in the world.
Having reflected on the various theories,
we have gone into the yoke with him who has shaken off all sin.
But shall we be able to proceed together with him? [46]

The best of ways is the eightfold path.
This is the path.
There is no other
that leads to the purifying of intelligence.
Go on this path!
Everything else is the deceit of Mara, the tempter.
If you go on this path,
you will make an end of pain!
Says the Tathagata.
The path was preached by me,
when I had understood the removal of the thorn in the flesh. [47]

Not only by discipline and vows, not only by much learning,
do I learn the happiness of release which no worldling can know.
Bhikkhu, be not confident as long as thou hast not attained the extinction of thirst.
The extinction of evil desire is the highest religion. [48]

The gift of religion exceeds all gifts;
the sweetness of religion exceeds all sweetness;
the delight in religion exceeds all delights;
the extinction of thirst overcomes all pain. [49]

Few are there among men who cross the river and reach the goal.
The great multitudes are running up and down the shore;
but there is no suffering for him who has finished his journey. [50]

As the lily will grow full of seet perfume and delight upon a heap of rubbish,
thus the disciple of the truly enlightened Buddha shines forth by his wisdom
among those who are like rubbish, among the people that walk in darkness. [51]

Let us live happily then, not hating those who hate us!
Among men who hate us let us dwell free from hatred! [52]

Let us live happily then, free from all ailments among the ailing!
Among men who are ailing let us dwell free from ailments! [53]

Let us live happily then, free from greed among the greedy!
Among men who are greedy let us dwell free from greed! [54]

The sun is bright by day, the moon shines by night,
the warrior is bright in his armor, thinkers are bright in their meditation;
but among all the brightest with splendor day and night
is the Buddha, the Awakened, the Holy Blessed. [55]


Such as, for example?
Best wishes,



Pete Brown
Authors of Antiquity

boneyard bill

Not to mention that all the images of Jesus have a beard while all the images of Buddha are clean-shaven.

boneyard bill

Some interesting parallels but no smoking gun. Buddhist influence spread all the way to China and Japan so it isn't difficult to expect that it would have spread also to the more accessable Mediterranean area. But I suspect that most Buddhist influences on Christianity were second or third hand and those would be very difficult to detect.

mountainman

IMO there does exist "a smoking gun", and this is best
represented in the following issue:

THE TREATISE OF EUSEBIUS, THE SON OF PAMPHILUS,
AGAINST THE LIFE OF APOLLONIUS OF TYANA
WRITTEN BY PHILOSTRATUS, OCCASIONED BY
THE PARALLEL DRAWN BY HIEROCLES
BETWEEN HIM AND CHRIST.

Since this treatise was written circa 312 CE (ie: when Constantine
came to imperial power in Rome, and the western Empire, the literature
of Philostratus, the literature of Apollonius of Tyana, and other similar
writings were targetted for deletion, and their possession was soon
to be proclaimed heretical.

There is an enture and extremely interesting history associated with
the re-emergence of the Philostratus text "The Life of Apollonius of
Tyana" in the period of time between 312 CE and our era. For many
centuries, until only very recently, the Philostratus text was mandatorily
prefaced with the above treatise by Eusebius, so as to deliver the antidote
to the poison which follows.

The fourth century christian regime, irrespective to my contention
that it was only new in the land, totally decimated the "pagan" tradition.
I use the word "pagan" expressly to indicate an indigenous population
consistent of diverse traditions, sourced from the antiquity, largely
Hellenic. The essenic tradition --- very similar to buddism --- and
all other non-christian traditions were wiped out, according to the
agenda of the post Nicaean power structure in the ROman empire.
See Vlasis Rassias, Demolish Them!, Published in Greek, Athens 1994.

The smoking gun is the above statement of the ecclesiatical father
of the fourth century new and strange Roman religious order in which
he delivers a treatise against the literature which was to be suppressed.

The literature purported to have been written by Apollonius
was evidently destroyed. His philosophy was essentially Buddhist in nature
if we are to gather together the fragments which today remain.

ie: no sacrifice of animals, abstinence from eating meat and wine,
and other issues which are not only part of Buddhist tradition, but
share many essentials with the Pythagoraean (or the neo-Pythagoraean)
philosophy which underwent a revival in the first few centuries of the CE.

The smoking gun IMO is Eusebius' above treatise against the
victims of the implementation of the new Roman religious order.



Pete Brown
Authors of Antiquity

Malachi151

So you are proposing Buddhist influence via Apollonius. I don't see a problem with that, and this could be, in addition to a general influence from other sources as well. If it is indeed correct, as it seems to be, that the Buddhists texts had been translated into Greek by 2nd century BCEm and were in Egypt and Greece some time before the 1st century CE, I think there are a number of possibilities for general cultureal influence. Again, smoking guns are hard to come up with in this case.

Clivedurdle

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=123887

Is Xianity Western buddhism?

mountainman

That is one interesting thread - thanks.

Perhaps the most interesting assertion on this thread
is that in which someone suggests that Q may have
been a Buddhist document, perhaps the Dharmapada
(posted above), which, I think all objective historians
may now assess, would have surely been represented
in the library of Alexandria, if not also elsewhere in the
Roman empire of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries CE,
and translated to the Greek.




Pete Brown