Jack the Bodiless

The Crusades are entirely consistent with Biblical principles, Magus: have you read the Old Testament?

Sure, there are some verses that could be used against it. But the Bible is a mess of contradictions, out of which individual Christians pull whatever verses they find convenient or appealing.

God always agrees with his followers. Even when they don't agree with each other.

Biggus

Ummmm...... Hitler wasn't an atheist.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - A. Hitler in Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 2.

"The task of preserving and advancing the highest humanity, given to this earth by the benevolence of the Almighty, seems a truly high mission." Ibid, Vol. 2 Chapter 2.

And so on and so forth.

Further, Stalin wasn't killing people in the name of Atheism.

Hmmmm... Who were those guys with the crosses and the swords in the Holy Lands during the middle ages then? Cleaners?

See, the trouble with the German WW2 analogy is that while a large number of the population were aware of the Jews getting a raw deal, getting locked up, etc, the vast majority were totally unaware of the Final Solution.

During the crusades, it was very clear what was going to happen before the armies even left Europe.

During the inquisitions, everyone knew what would happen when someone was accused of heresy.

Do you see the problem?

Like it or not, Catholicism is a Christian religion. It is the historical basis for most, if not all miscellaneous Christian religions that now exist.

Magus55

Contrary to atheistic belief, becoming Christian doesn't automatically turn you into a flawless Saint. And do you even know whether the people who condoned those actions were saved Christians? You can wear the tag "Christian" without actually being one. "By their fruits shall they be known"

Magus55

The Crusades aren't entirely consistent with the New Testament which is what Christianity is based on. Most Christians probably don't even pay attention to the OT. And of course I disagree with your "mess of contradictions".

Goliath

Sorry, Magus, but the "No True Scotsman" fallacy is still a fallacy.

If that ever changes, I'll let you know.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Magus55

I don't believe I mentioned Atheism. I said blaiming the Crusades on Christianity is just like blaming the Germans for Hitler. And who said Hitler was Christian? I don't see one word up there that denotes him being a Christian. In fact, I find it highly unlikely that Hitler would accept Christianity based on the sole premise that the person behind Christianity was a Jew. Hitler worship a Jew? I don't think so. I could show you quotes with Hitler saying what a Plague and abomination Christianity is. Hitler's faith or lack there of is a big question mark.


And? Like it or not, most of the people who killed the 6 million Jews under Hitler were German. Again, do you blame all Germans for Hitler's actions? Then why blame all Christianity for the Catholic Church's actions?

Magus55

I didn't invoke the NTS. Its quite true that not everyone that calls themselves Christian, is in fact one. The Bible makes this quite apparent. Its not a fallacy.

Krusty

Even if the Catholics were not Christians during the crusades (for instance). My questions are: Where were the "real" Christians? And more importantly, where was the Christian God? How could an active and loving God allow these atrocities to be carried out in his name? It sounds like an argument for non-existance to me.

Occams_Razor

Now isn't that special. So what you're telling us is that invoking the no true scottsman fallacy (which you are) doesn't work in this case because the doctrine of the religion provides for this fallacy? Let's take a group of 50,000 people who identify themselves as christians. So all the murders and maniacs pedophiles and pederasts, burglars and buggerers (insert more alliterative couplets of criminals) of that group are not "true" christians? Basically, then, a christian is one who acts like a christian as you or others define a christian. Inagine that--a self correcting religion that defines its adherents. What a whitewash. By the way, where do you draw the line? Taken to the extreme your "logic" leads to all "true" christians going to heaven.

Goliath

So sorry, but you do not get to define what a xian is. Anyone who thinks they're a xian is a xian.

Sincerely,

Goliath