Freethought & Rationalism Archive

XOVER · 05-24-2006, 08:45 PM

I have no doubt Gamera is completely sincere in all of his convictions. How terrifying is that?

The Gemera's of the world are precisely why I must agree with Hobbes and Freud -- mankind, at his inner core, is utterly irrational.

Gemera's particular insensitivity to the suffering of animals is, for me, horrifying. His argument is quite clever -- and cruel beyond measure. And he doesn't realize it at all.

Is there any question as to why the Inquisition tortured, maimed, and killed millions for years in the name of the "new ethics?" Draw and quarter, anyone?

Gemera's insistence that the Vedas post-date the Bible (much less by a thousand years) is proof that preserving the history of mankind is so precarious, if ever placed back into the hands of the zealots. History, science, indeed -- all rationality will turn back to inky darkness if the Gemara's ever come back to power.

I wonder how Gemara would react if I say the Veda's were in fact written around 1000, but that the Bible was actually written around 1563? This is true -- accept it -- because I say so.

Scary world we live in. Reason under assault from the "Christian" zealots.

Guess I'll go kill some children now since YHWH says it's ok. I trust Daddy more than Junior, you see.

Gemara I'm sure you're a nice person outside of cyberspace. But in cyberspace your ideas on ethics are eminently cruel. Forbidding. Terrifying.

Not that you care about my opinion, of course. Just don't kick my dog.

Amaleq13 · 05-24-2006, 09:46 PM

Please avoid speculating about individual members and focus on their arguments.

Thanks in advance,

Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

Equinox · 05-25-2006, 06:48 AM

Well, many of the atrocities given so far are quite good. Though those are all quite sufficient to show that the God of the Bible is simply evil, for discussion I'd add the many where children are killed. SOme examples are the pharoh/exodus/firstborn story (isn't terrorism defined as killing to make a political point?), the killing of thousands of babies in the flood, the suffering for a week and eventual killing of David's baby expressly to punish David, and when God delights in the killing of 70 children and the delivery of their heads in baskets:

David's kid:
2 sam 12:

Quote:

the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

18 On the seventh day the child died.

the 70 heads of children in baskets that God liked so much:

Quote:

2Kg 9:

6 Jehu got up and went into the house. Then the prophet poured the oil on Jehu's head and declared, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I anoint you king over the LORD's people Israel. 7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD's servants shed by Jezebel. 8 The whole house of Ahab will perish.

..........
2 Kings 10
Ahab's Family Killed
1 Now there were in Samaria seventy sons of the house of Ahab. So Jehu wrote letters and sent them to Samaria: to the officials of Jezreel, [a] to the elders and to the guardians of Ahab's children. He said, 2 "As soon as this letter reaches you, since your master's sons are with you and you have chariots and horses, a fortified city and weapons, 3 choose the best and most worthy of your master's sons and set him on his father's throne. Then fight for your master's house."
4 But they were terrified and said, "If two kings could not resist him, how can we?"

5 So the palace administrator, the city governor, the elders and the guardians sent this message to Jehu: "We are your servants and we will do anything you say. We will not appoint anyone as king; you do whatever you think best."

6 Then Jehu wrote them a second letter, saying, "If you are on my side and will obey me, take the heads of your master's sons and come to me in Jezreel by this time tomorrow."
Now the royal princes, seventy of them, were with the leading men of the city, who were rearing them. 7 When the letter arrived, these men took the princes and slaughtered all seventy of them. They put their heads in baskets and sent them to Jehu in Jezreel. 8 When the messenger arrived, he told Jehu, "They have brought the heads of the princes."
Then Jehu ordered, "Put them in two piles at the entrance of the city gate until morning."
..........

30 The LORD said to Jehu, "Because you have done well in accomplishing what is right in my eyes and have done to the house of Ahab all I had in mind to do, your descendants will sit on the throne of Israel to the fourth generation."

hinduwoman · 05-26-2006, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar
Bwwaaa! Bwaaaa! Boo-hoo-hoo!
We just hate you gawd! an we are gonna run away! you'll see! Bwaaaa!
We'll tell on you! Boo-hoo! We'll tell! we'll tell everyone just what a bad, bad, meanie of an ol' gawd you really are! Boo-hoo-hoo!

From what I have read in this forum that is exactly what the posters do --- they explain to Christians why their God is a meanie. Then the Christians answer God has a right to be meanie; take that you crybaby atheists!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera
My point is, a world without suffering, is a world without consequences and hence a world without moral choice and hence a world where life isn't worth living. Of course there's nothing good about a baby getting cancer. That's not the question, the question is What's the alternative? A world without cancer, pain, death, suffering, unhappiness, disappointment, is essentially a world without significance. Nothing would matter. If you think sitting and grinning is a life worth living fine; but if you think life involves insight, self awareness, emotional depth, caring, then this appears to be the very universe where such things are possible, and no other universe. But again, man, give us the alternative. Describe you're perfect world. I bet we can pick it apart in an instance.

It is amazing how the religious culture where one has grown up influences one. Christianity places so much emphasis on Christ suffering and dying and so to gamera a world without suffering is meaningless.
To a Hindu or Buddhist this would be absurd; the whole aim of life is to escape suffering; suffering is the result of negative karma

Quote:

Since life is a gift, we can hardly complain on our own behalf.

Only according to you. My position is hey I did not ask to be born, so get off my case.

hinduwoman · 05-26-2006, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spin
To start with we could do without malaria, tuberculosis, bilhazia, and other friendly bugs.

But they might protest at this highhandedness and ask where you got the idea this earth was made for man’s comfort and not for them. Maybe IPU had promised them dominion over the earth and all creatures thereof. At any rate I refuse to take away their free will. [giggles insanely]

hinduwoman · 05-26-2006, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera
Well, if God give life and a meaningful existence, and that entails suffering, then yes God is benevolent.

In that case I am happy God had so far been malevolent to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera
For your point to make any sense, you have to tell us the alternative. A world without any physical or emotional obstacles to anything we want. Sounds great, it just doens't involved being a human being. No thanks.

Try again, and tell us exactly what kind of world you think a benevolent God would create. I got to hear this.

Is this a serious question?

Quote:

When Rama ruled on earth no woman knew the pain of widowhood, none feared death by snakebite and disease; there were no thieves, the old did not have to arrange for the funerals of young, none grew jealous of anyone else, people lived a thousand years, rain fell as needed, the winds were pleasant to touch, none told lies.
-- Ramayana

If someone thousands of years ago could think up a better alternate universe why could not you? Maybe too much sophistication retards the brain?

P.S the things about old not seeing the funerels of the young always meke me nearly cry.

Gamera · 05-26-2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hinduwoman

If someone thousands of years ago could think up a better alternate universe why could not you? Maybe too much sophistication retards the brain?

P.S the things about old not seeing the funerels of the young always meke me nearly cry.

Well, you and I wouldn't be in that alternate universe because there were no thiefs and as people with free will, we are capable of stealing. So you just nixed yourself out of your perfect world.

Again, no thanks. I really prefer existence with some suffering to nonexistence.

Gamera · 05-26-2006, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderlives

No no no! It has to specifically say 'Love your Enemies!', or Gamera gets to reject it......

Since that's the teaching in question, yes. The issue is does any earlier nonChristian text teach loving your enemies. Not loving your neighbors but loving your enemies. The difference is important, even if you chose to discount it.

Gamera · 05-26-2006, 03:56 PM

[QUOTE=spin]

Quote:

More apparent naivity this time regarding education, which I use as a cultural term which includes upbringing. Had you been born in Nazi Germany, would you have been taught to dob in people who didn't conform to what was deemed to be the norm? and would you probably not have done the dobbing?

The idea that Nazis didn't have free will because they were taught to hate Jews is staggeringly appalling. It doesn't matter what you're taught, you are responsible if you choose to harm others. I guess we must disagree on this nonnegotiable issue. You call me naive; I call your position appallingly apologetic.

Quote:

You focus. Your feint doesn't work. Are more people proportionally killed by gunshot wounds in the US than in any other major "western" country? Is there proportionally more homelessness in the US than in any of the other top economic western country? Why do you think? Do they have more free will to be homeless? Oh, I see, that's not a moral decision, is it? The people in the society though are making a moral decision to leave these people out in the cold. They are doing as they are trained. People usually do as they are educated to do. That's why American soldiers mostly go into foreign countries and kill without asking questions.

Focus on the issue. Yep, people hurt people. That's what people with free will do: they make good and bad choices. Now what does that have to do with the topic except reinforce my point that a world with suffering is not evidence of a cruel God if you accept that free will is a good thing.

Quote:

So cough up a meaningful approach to your notion of free will. Is it sufficient to talk about the ability to make moral choices, when we see that people are educated differently and make different moral choices because of it? Do those making generally more limited ranges of moral choices due to their educations more robotic in your books?

Already coughed it up. It isn't complex. Everybody can make moral or immoral (selfish) choices despite their history or context. A denial of that strangely undermines your point. If nobody's to blame for their choices, then surely God isn't either.

spin · 05-26-2006, 06:08 PM

Quote: