mountainman

The word "pagan" is a christian word which enters the
epigraphic and papyrii record in the fourth century.



Pete Brown

Roger Pearse

The word is Latin, and so first appears in the first of the Latin fathers, Tertullian, ca. 210 AD (all his works are hard to date) in Adversus Praxean. But he emphatically rejects the idea that he is innovating; on the contrary he is merely summarising the apostolic teaching, and it is Praxeas who is innovating.

The Trinity perhaps arises as a formula because we see the following ideas in the New Testament:

1. There is only one God, the Father
2. Jesus is God (worshipped, forgives sins, etc)
3. Jesus is not the Father.

From this I would have thought that something like the Trinity was inevitable.

Tertullian's work arises in reaction to Praxeas asserting that the Father and Jesus are so much the same that one can say that the Father was crucified. This of course ignores #3.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

The above link describes the jagged and disjointed way we got to where we are now.

There was no Adam and Eve, big bang clear beginning.

I find this whole area of BCH making unwarranted assumptions that there was a "big bang" with this person Jesus, but when we look at it we see ideas "copied" from "pagan" traditions and there are clear psychological reasons for example behind three thinking.

There is an assumption that everything ties back to the first century - in reality a lot of it is later and many themes are earlier - Ellegard is of note here.

It looks very much like a lot of loose threads were badly tied together at some point - well after the first century - and there was definitely a huge tidy up effort in the 300's.

A detailed look at the evolution or invention of the Trinity would be a very valuable exercise.

We are looking at the creation of a history of the universe, when god and man are united in a new heaven and earth. This is an incredibly powerful psychologically story, but we seem unwilling to look seriously at how it actually evolved, and unconsciously take at face value the xian view of history that there was a point in time when a god became man, or that there was a variant of an itinerant preacher who was the seed of all of this.

Remember the effect of geometry. Once this was worked out, it becomes natural to think in terms of centres of gravity, of points from which things may be measured. But that is an artefact we impose - we are order seeking mammals.

The idea of the godman at the centre of the universe - Jerusalem - at the fulcrum of time - is a wonderful geometric idea.

But did it happen like that?

I have joked elsewhere about the trinity being an example of xian maths -

1+1+1 = 1.

Maybe the whole idea of Jesus being the centre is xian geometry?

Clouseau

It is one thing to say that the Biblical deity has three faces- prosopon, to use a NT word. It's another thing to say that this deity exists in three persons, i.e. separate entities, individuals. I challenge any Trinitarian to find support for 'Persons' in NT or OT.

premjan

It could be a metaphor for the (introspective knowledge of the) triune brain.

gstafleu

Since those ideas form a clear logical contradiction, I suppose something was inevitable, given that people get nervous when faced with such a situation. It might have been better just to let the situation be, ascribe it to "mysterious ways" if you must, rather than invent something like the trinity, which as a cure really isn't much better than the disease. I can't help but wonder why believers insist in coming up with such unnecessary solutions, which just damage there cause, when they repeatedly say that one should take things on faith (see Paul). If they had just done that in this case we wouldn't be having these constant discussions, and the believers in question wouldn't have looked so silly.

Gerard Stafleu

Steven Avery

Although we only have the ideas of Praxeas through Tertullian. Folks on different doctrinal poles sometimes speak of the other person's views imprecisely. (I haven't looked at the Tertullian quote recently.)

Shalom,
Steven

andrewcriddle

We have similar ideas attributed to Noetus and others by Hippolytus.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-13.htm
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-18.htm

Andrew Criddle

aa5874

The trinity evolved and became acceptable doctrine eventually through death threats, burning of literature with other doctrines and collusion with the political power of the day.

Chili

Nice post Cheerful Charlie.