Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gnosis92 · 01-08-2007, 02:31 PM

since I don't know Greek, does Jesus say "jehovah" or use Hebrew names for deity? including el oh heim and el shaddai and what not. The English says "Father" or "Lord" even "God" and I cannot tell if this is a translation of a Greek translitteration.

If Jesus was a devote Jew, wouldn't he use Hebrew names of deity, as the rabbis and jews do? Is there any precedent for a devote Jew to not use Hebrew names for deity contemporary to Jesus?

Toto · 01-08-2007, 02:54 PM

A devout Jew would not use the name of G-d, period, as uttering the name of God is a violation of a commandment.

Ben C Smith · 01-08-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

since I don't know Greek, does Jesus say "jehovah" or use Hebrew names for deity? including el oh heim and el shaddai and what not. The English says "Father" or "Lord" even "God" and I cannot tell if this is a translation of a Greek translitteration.

When your translation has father, the Greek is generally πατηρ. Where it has Lord, the Greek is generally κυριος. Where it has God, the Greek is generally θεος. All of these are good Greek words.

The NT documents usually follow the precedent set by the Septuagint (LXX), in that the sacred name יהוה (Yahweh) is rendered by κυριος (Lord). Speaking Aramaic or Hebrew, Jesus would have probably used adonai (meaning Lord) as a standard circumlocution for Yahweh.

Ben.

No Robots · 01-08-2007, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Jesus would have probably used adonai (meaning Lord) as a standard circumlocution for Yahweh.

This obscures the fact that Christ avoids all designations other than his own innovative term, "Father". For more on this subject, go to google books and type "jesus+father+abba".

gnosis92 · 01-08-2007, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

When your translation has father, the Greek is generally πατηρ. Where it has Lord, the Greek is generally κυριος. Where it has God, the Greek is generally θεος. All of these are good Greek words.

The NT documents usually follow the precedent set by the Septuagint (LXX), in that the sacred name יהוה (Yahweh) is rendered by κυριος (Lord). Speaking Aramaic or Hebrew, Jesus would have probably used adonai (meaning Lord) as a standard circumlocution for Yahweh.

Ben.

Thanks

Toto · 01-08-2007, 06:34 PM

There is, of course, this:

Quote:

Matthew 27:46

Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lema sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark 15:34

And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lema sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

The Aramaic Eli or Eloi I assume is a cognate of Elohim, or god. This is a quote from the opening line of Psalm 21 (or 22, depending on your version).

gnosis92 · 01-08-2007, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is, of course, this:

The Aramaic Eli or Eloi I assume is a cognate of Elohim, or god. This is a quote from the opening line of Psalm 21 (or 22, depending on your version).

I wonder if the Gospel of Peter is closer when it translates it as "my power my power...."

could elohim be translated as "my power"?

Ben C Smith · 01-08-2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

I wonder if the Gospel of Peter is closer when it translates it as "my power my power...."

could elohim be translated as "my power"?

Not translated that way, no. But Yahweh could be designated with a circumlocution such as the blessed, the power, and so forth.

Ben.

Ben C Smith · 01-08-2007, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

This obscures the fact that Christ avoids all designations other than his own innovative term, "Father". For more on this subject, go to google books and type "jesus+father+abba".

Jesus calls God the Lord in the following passages: Matthew 4.7, 10; 5.33; 9.38; 11.25; 21.42; 22.37, 44; 23.39; 27.10; Mark 12.11, 29-30, 36; 13.20; Luke 4.8, 18-19; 10.2, 27; 13.35; 20.37. Many of these are from the LXX, but then, that was part of my point.

Ben.

Amaleq13 · 01-08-2007, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

This obscures the fact that Christ avoids all designations other than his own innovative term, "Father".

Innovative?

"...one of the distinguishing features of ancient Hasidic piety is its habit of alluding to God precisely as 'Father'." (Vermes, Jesus the Jew, p.210)

01-08-2007, 02:31 PM	#1
gnosis92 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: usa Posts: 3,103	since I don't know Greek, does Jesus say "jehovah" or use Hebrew names for deity? since I don't know Greek, does Jesus say "jehovah" or use Hebrew names for deity? including el oh heim and el shaddai and what not. The English says "Father" or "Lord" even "God" and I cannot tell if this is a translation of a Greek translitteration. If Jesus was a devote Jew, wouldn't he use Hebrew names of deity, as the rabbis and jews do? Is there any precedent for a devote Jew to not use Hebrew names for deity contemporary to Jesus?

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01-08-2007, 02:54 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	A devout Jew would not use the name of G-d, period, as uttering the name of God is a violation of a commandment.

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