aa5874

You really don't know what you are talking about. It is a rather easy exercise to IDENTIFY fiction, forgeries and implausibilities in Apologetic sources because we have NON-APOLOGETIC sources that wrote about EVENTS in Judea and the ROMAN EMPIRE in the 1st century.

We have Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Lucian, and others.

You seem not to understand that once a writing is NOT credible then it can be REJECTED.

Have you ever been to court trial??? Once a witness has perjured his/herself then all statements from that witness may be REJECTED.

This is basic.

Writings attributed to Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Eusebius and others contain information about the Pauline writings that are NOT compatible with the DATED Texts and compatible sources therefore I have REJECTED any statement made about Jesus, the disciples and Paul.

The dated evidence show that Jesus, the disciples and Paul did NOT exist in the 1st century.

You seem to have no idea what I have writtten. I have NOT claimed that Justin Martyr was the only Christian religious writer. Please, I find what you say extremely disturbing.

Again, this is MY POSITION. The following apologetic sources are compatible with the DATED Texts of antiquity.

Justin Martyr, Aristides, Minucius Felix, Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras of Athens, Tatian, and Arnobius

What absurdity!!! You very well know that we have FAKE authors, Fiction stories which were written when the FAKE authors were dead so your "So What ?" is just ridiculous.

So What??? The history of the Jesus cult was Manipulated by Fraud.

Please, when it is claimed a disciple of Jesus wrote the Gospel or that Paul wrote Epistles we are NOT only dealing with false attribution we are also dealing with possible known fraud where the history of the Jesus cult was deliberately manipulated.

Again, you propagate blatant erroneous information about me so I am now of the opinion that it may be deliberate.

I have NOT claimed virtually all early Christian writings are fictional.

Again, this is a list of EARLY Christian writers that are compatible with the dated Texts.

Justin Martyr, Aristides, Minucius Felix, Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras of Athens, Tatian, and Arnobius.

Please, you very well know that I HAVE IDENTIFIED the fiction BEFORE I declared the writing to be NOT credible.

I have IDENTIFIED fiction and non-historical claims in Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, Eusebius and others.

I wish you would stop making these blatant erroneous claims because you come across as NOT being credible.

If I can't trust you to repeat what I wrote then how can I have a proper discussion.

angelo

Or more likely the whole tale was an invention. The short version of gMark finishes at the empty tomb, there's no visions of a resurrected Jesus.

Duvduv

Whatever the meaning, it doesn't distinguish Paul's experience with his Christ from that of the other people mentioned in the list except that he was last. Thus it's not explained whether any of the others had the same experience he did or an experience of the physical resurrected Jesus.

Of course the entire scenario of "resurrection" here doesn't make any sense, as I mentioned in another thread.

aa5874

The Gospels do NOT contain visions of a resurrection. The Gospels stories are about a PHYSICAL Bodily resurrection.

Remember that Jesus told the disciples to MEET him in GALILEE after he was Raised from the dead.

It would NOT be necessary for the disciples to take a THREE days trip from Jerusalem to Galillee for a vision.

Mark 14:28 KJV

Sheshbazzar

Interesting....and quite confusing.

Justin Martyr. (circa 100-165 CE) writes about "Jesus", "Christ", "Apostles", the Christians, and the practices and doctrines of Christianity.

Aristides (circa 100-115 CE) writes about "Jesus","Christ", "Apostles", the Christians, and practices and doctrines of Christianity.

Your POSITION is not clear.

Why would you reference the texts of these 2nd century writers, with their usages of these terms, as being authentic to their era in accounting for the then contemporary Christian beliefs. (if that is your intent)?
And yet reject the same or similar information as being fraudulent when it occurs in Eusebius's writings around a hundred years latter?
Is there some reason why Eusebius is supposed to be unaware of what these earlier writers wrote in the previous century?

I am not trying to argue here, just trying to make some sense out of why, or how you would employ these authors writings to support a claim that Eusebius's writings are fraudulent.

It would make sense if you said that they were also fraudulent latter christian forgeries along with those writings attributed to Eusebius. Is that your POSITION?

You are not at all clear in what it is you are claiming regarding Eusebius, or the writings of these earlier Christians.

Are you claiming that all the works of Eusebius were actually forgeries that were produced by other unkown writers in the 4th, 5th, or 6th or latter centuries?
Or that there really never lived an author Eusebius of Caesarea who wrote during the 4th century? That he was only a Church invention?

What of Aristides? or of Justin Martyr? in your view were they real authors?
DID Aristides NOT write in his 'Apology' about "Jesus" "The Son of God"? and the Christians? and in the 2nd century CE?
And did Justin Martyr NOT write of "Jesus" and the 'Memoirs of the Apostles"? and in the 2nd century CE?

All of the translations I have located certainly contain "Jesus", "Christ" and "Apostles".
Do you have texts that lack these references to "Jesus", "Christ", "Apostles" or the 'Memoirs of the Apostles"???

Or are you claiming that both of these sources and their mentions of "Jesus", "Christ", and the "Apostles" and the "Gospel" are also a latter church fabrications and fraud?
If so, then how on earth do these DOCUMENTED writings of Justin Martyr or of Aristrides support your POSITION?

I really don't know. And after spending many hours trying to figure it out, the only result has been a headache.

You often SHOUT loud, but you are failing to clearly communicate whatever it is that you are trying to say.
Just state when you believe it was that Aristides and Justin Martyr wrote about "Jesus".
Or if you think that they didn't write about "Jesus" and the "Apostles", then just say so.

Just state when you believe the many works of Eusebius were written, and by whom.
(it would even be enough to simply reply; 'not by Eusebius', to make your position clearer.)

angelo

Which assures that the whole shebang is a myth. Nowhere is it stating history. Only historicised myth.

Duvduv

If he was resurrected in Jerusalem why would he have to meet them all the way in Galilee?!

aa5874

The author is attempting to show or claim that the resurrection of Jesus was NOT a vision.

The disciples MUST physically GO to Galilee--NOT just DREAM or hallucinate.

Sinaiticus gMatthew The NT is about the Physical bodily resurrection of Jesus--Not visions.

Duvduv

What's wrong with Bethelehem? Or another nearby place like Jericho?? You still don't see any confusion in the context, whether it is "resurrection" of someone with holes in his body, or lack of reference to Jesus life in any text written allegedly by someone claiming to believe in a historical Jesus of the gospels, or lack of references by Paul to any places visited by Christ even in Jerusalem. It becomes clearer that these texts were confused at least partially because they seem to have been written in A RUSH.........!!
And you, AA, don't notice any of it or the contextual confusion of the so-called ancient historians.

Adam

My analysis of seven eyewitnesses to Jesus does not confirm that their accounts contained any predictions of or appearances in Galilee. That entered the gospels only in a later edition of gMark (and developed farther in gMatthew). See my Noesis article that presents my argument that the Twelve-Source text was misread in the process of developing the text now in Mark and Matthew. Similarly, Matthew 28:16 identifies as Galilee what was in Luke 24:50 identified as Bethany. (Alternately, the disciples who fled from Jerusalem when Jesus was arrested may have only remembered Resurrection appearances of Jesus in Galilee.)