Lucretius

For me I think the "darkness" of this period can be summed up by one very simple fact.
Charlemagne the Holy Roman Emperor had to learn to read and write as an ADULT.
Was there ever an Emperor with such power prior to him who was effectively illiterate ?
As bad or indifferent the later Roman Emperors were they were at least literate.
IF Charlemagne could not read and write then what proportion of the "higher classes" were in the same boat ?
Illiteracy amongst the "great and good" = Dark Ages for me

Amedeo

A brief explanation of the significance of a quotation for those who have not read my previous posts. (This is not an attempt to explain anything to those few who, having read, had no "reading comprehension" and, therefore, cannot rationally connect the former and the present statements. They growl like wounded beasts.]


Darkness fell over the land of the free and world-dedicated Europeans by virtue of Christian preachers inducing people to renounce the world and to live in preparatation of the afterlife, and by virtue of barbarians vandalizing and feudalizing civilized countries.

Culture became abysmal. Societies so developed as to become divided between lords and servants. The Church was the holder of two keys -- spiritual power and temporal/secular power; Catholic and Protestant sects maintained secular political power in various countries and up to diverse periods of time. (The CHRONOLOGICAL period of the Dark/Medieval Ages varies in different countries, and, as I have repeated and exemplified in vain, the whole Middle Ages is not 100% dark either at the beginning or thoughout it. The time-period of an age and the typical quality of an age are not identical. Similarly, for example, the period of the Italian Renaissance, 14th-17th century, is not devoid of non-renaissance features, such as a political hegemony of the Church, etc. For these matters, look into, for example, the strife between the republic of Venice and of the Vatican during the high Renaissance.) Finally, the "darkness" of the Dark/Medieval Age [which is obviously not reducible to matters of "learning," as some people erroneously imagine] continued to be caused by intra-national and international affairs --oppressions, suppressions, denigrations, etc. -- which all result in the elimination of civil freedom, deculturalization, poverty, or death.

My above post should have been instructive... The persecution of the Cathars is just one example of the Church's use of secular LORDLY power to suppress the freedom of people to have their own religion (or none of it) and to live. (The Church has no basis in Christian doctrine to undertake the persecution of people on account of their religion; while it had political power, it acted like the US government in many projects including the Iraq war: unconstitutionally. But this is not my point; my point is the historical fact that A's suppression of B's freedom is an instance of the DARKNESS in a period of time and place.)

The above quotation indicates that witchcraft was not being persecuted on account of what we, in civil society, would call criminality [its doing harm to others, its being suppressive of anybody's rights/freedoms, and the like]; it was perseculated by its being likened to heresy [such as the heresy of the Arians, the Cathars, or anybody else]. An opinion, belief, or doctrine is heretical, if it diverges from the orthodox/official one. So, the Church has always presumed that it and only it establishes the truth AND that anybody who proclaims error is a criminal. Similarly, today for example, many countries have laws which state that the denial or contestation of the truth that there was a Jerwish holocaust with 6 million victims is a criminal. In all cases, proclaimed error is punishable by imprisonment or death.

The above quotation gives also evidence of the medievality of France toward the end of the 14th century --feudal, ecclesiastic, and scholastic: the enlightened THEOLOGICAL faculty of the UNIVERSITY of Paris determined that witchcraft is heretical and sanctioned the persecution of witchcraft. That's darkness!

Antipope Innocent II

Yes, it was. What you've failed to address is what makes this unique to the Middle Ages. The Early Modern Period (including your wonderful "Renaissance") saw plenty of such persecutions (including the Witch Craze). The Roman Era saw them as well - read Pliny on the systematic pursuit and persecution of the Bachannals in the Second Century BC, complete with trials, torture of suspects and mass executions.

And you've still forgotten to back up your earlier weird claims (you Columbus sailing off the edge of the world, Medieval belief in a flat earth etc) so your credibility in anything you say is zero.

Amedeo

... They growl like wounded beasts.]

Amedeo

Sequel to # 316

Another useful import into Europe during the high Middle Ages: PAPER MANUFACTURING -- not a Medieval invention.

http://www.lifesciences.asu.edu/pape...rhistory3.html

1035. Paper produced in Egypt and used for packaging.
1100. Paper in Morocco.

1102. Paper in Sicily.
1109. Earliest existing European manuscript on paper, in Sicily.

1150. Papermill in Spain; paper exported.
1228. Paper in Germany.
1168. Paper made at Fabriano ( Northern Italy), where it is still being made.
13th Cent. Paper in Southern Italy.
1289. Block printing on paper in Ravenna (Central Italy).

... paper in other European countries.

Later: ((1450-55. Gutenberg movable type printing. Etc. Etc.))

angelo

[QUOTE=Antipope Innocent II;4794678][QUOTE=angelo atheist;4794673]

I consider the dark ages ending around 1700. If you travel to the bible belt of the USA today, you would think you're still in the dark ages. Copernicus, [1473-1543] Published his ''The Revolutions of the Celestistial Spheres'', detailing his theory of a sun centered solar system.

This work, which fundamentally altered man's vision of the universe, was later BANNED by the catholic church and remained on the list of forbidden books until 1835. Galileo proved Copernicus theory to be right decades later.

angelo

I am 59 years young. When I was in grade 1 or 2 at a Catholic school in my home city of Perth [Highgate] our teacher who was a nun definitely taught us that the word of God was true and that science was wrong. Evolution was a sin against the word of God who created the whole shebang. And according to Genesis, the Earth was not a sphere, but a flat earth. It was not until I left that loony bin that I realized that this nun was talking out of her arse. The whole class believed that was the church's teaching.

Antipope Innocent II

Was this in 500 AD, 1500 AD or some year in between? Or did Sister Whatshername fall through a timehole from the Middle Ages and into a teaching job in Perth in the 1950s?

Sarpedon

I too have heard anectodal evidence of ministers, nuns and rabbis who believe the earth is flat in the present eras. Personally, I think fundamentalism is a recent phenomenon.

Amedeo

P.S. to #322

While there was some revival of learning in the theological universities of the Middle Ages [and much more outside], monastic scriptoria both preserved and hid some of the ancient secular writings. Here is a case where a major book that included some of Archimedes' works was scraped, during the 13th century, so that the pages [parchment] were used for writing down prayers. Thus the advancement of learning was effectively curbed. This case is emblematic of the whole Middle Ages: religion (and theology) supersedes secular wisdom.

The story about "The Archimedes Codex":

Archimedes Codex on Amazon (or via: amazon.co.uk)
www.archimedespalimpsest.org