dog-on

Paul admits he did. Didn't you read the quote?

You have a source that can be evidenced to have been written prior to the Paulines, or are you asking for special pleading consideration here?

Current understanding is that the legitimate Paulines preceded the writing of the Gospels. It seems logical that the Gospel writers derived inspiration from Paul and not vice-versa.

The only evidence of Paul is the legitimate letters, I am aware of no other writings that can be established as his.

A heavenly savior.

Possibly, but those "Christians" did not seem to have the same beliefs, (a different religion), that Paul espoused, as per his quotation and others, within his writings if, indeed, those references are actually authentic.

Mark is the name given to the author of Mark, the work itself is anonymous.

The gospel appears to have been later than the Paulines.

Nowhere in the Gospel is any indication given as to the actual intent of the author.

Mark's story is a tragedy about a misunderstood messiah, ironically only understood by some women, demons and a couple of Roman centurions and who is finally killed by those he came to save.


Martyrs are a great marketing tool. Ask the Mormons...

aa5874

You want me to produce the cloud that talked with Moses and Elijah. That's insane.

But, I have already told you that you have no information about the history of your suicidal man, so I will show the written statements of the authors who presented the MYTH called Jesus.

Behold the MYTH.

It would appear, based on the author of Luke, that Jesus, born without sexual union, had multiple resurrections or had multiple vanishing acts performed in a 24-hour period.

In Luke 24, Jesus disappeared from from his tomb, and was talking to some people who did not recognise him. And as soon as they recognised him, he vanishes and then later re-appears, or should I say, resurrect again.

Luke 24.30 And Luke 24.36-37 Jesus was presented as a mythical creature by the authors of the NT and the church writers. He could disappear and re-appear at will, he could be dead and still alive, and alive and yet appear to be a ghost.

Behold Jesus the ghost, Jesus the dead, and the living myth Jesus.

Elijah

No I didn’t, put it up here with your interpretation and we can discuss it.
I’m asking for who you think in the NT is fictional. If the story of Jesus is made up, is also the story of the apostles and Stephen?
So if Mark wrote the gospels after finding Paul’s letters some time later does he think it’s real or fiction? What does Mark take from Paul’s letters as real? Does Paul have a following at the time or is it chance that Mark stumbles across the letters?

It’s reasonable to think that since the gospels where written after Paul’s letters they would look there for inspiration but you would be hard pressed to make a case that they derived the gospel from his letters. Paul is too unaware of the life or sayings of Jesus for that to be possible.
That’s way way way too ambiguous. What is Paul’s understanding of heaven? Physical location, pagan astral realm or constant side of the universe? What is his understanding of a savior here and how does he think his understanding of Christ will save anyone?
What do you think the beliefs of these “possible” prior Christians include… and what do you base this opinion on? Is it possible that they had a leader who died, that later had one of his followers stoned to death by Paul and Paul being upset at him dying a little more willingly then normal had a vision of and became a believer in their savior?
So you don’t know the author or his relation to Paul or Paul’s letters, do you know if he thought he was writing fiction when he wrote the gospel?
So an unknown author at an unknown time, writing a story for an unknown reason? These are the holes I’m talking about.
So it’s the story of a failed Messiah or successful one?
And that is all you need to know to figure out how Christianity started but you didn’t answer my question. Who and when did the line of martyrs start?

Elijah

No, I want you to have a coherent theory for what you believe and stop repeating the same Jesus in the clouds nonsense over and over again, that doesn't contribute anything to the conversation.

No information is expected to remain for a suicidal peasant but some mention should be expected for the author of the greatest story ever told.

bacht

It's probably easier to list the non-fictional characters in the NT:

- Herod the Great and offspring
- Augustus
- Pilate
- Tiberius
- Gamaliel the rabbi
- Agrippa I & II

...

The first line of martyrs in Jewish tradition started with Abel in Genesis. Later you've got various prophets slain or abused over the centuries.

More a propros the NT, the Maccabean period saw many resisters of Hellenism and Syrian political rule. Many Pharisees were crucified by king Jannaeus for challenging his assumption of the chief priesthood.

One of Herod's first acts was to slay the rebel leader Ezekias, patriarch of the founders of the Zealots. Many Jews died in the decades leading up to the fall of the temple in 70 fighting Roman rule.

There's no shortage of martyrs in the Jewish tradition. By contrast, Jesus dying on a cross is small potatoes.

Elijah

So Paul isn’t the creator of the story but fictional in your version of the myth theory? So who wrote yours and how/when did it get confused with history?
I think you/we may be using the word martyr a little too loosely for this conversation, especially when you have Able who was just a simple murder. I’m speaking of the line of martyrs that led to the catacombs in Rome. Who convinced the people of the time that self-sacrifice was the way to win reward after death? Who started that belief up?

Mark 8:35 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.

aa5874

I did not make up the talking cloud story, it was part of the presentation of the myth called Jesus as found in the gospels.

Why do you repeat that Jesus was a suicidal man, when it appears you made up your story? Where in the gospels is there a story that Jesus was suicidal?

So, that is how you do it.

You make up stories about Jesus claiming he was suicidal and then say all your evidence is missing, but it was there.

Using your special technique, you can make up a lot of stuff about Jesus.

bacht

There is no life after death, so it's a moot point

But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, for ever and ever.

Daniel 7:18

Elijah

No you didn’t make it up but you’re failing to understand the context or provide a rational understanding of how the myth was created or confused for history.
From the historical perspective what would you like to call a man who dies like that?
I’m saying there is no evidence to be expected from someone of his status.
Yea, now you should try making up something that explains how your myth version was created and confused for history. You want some historical proof of a peasant 2000 years ago and I just want you to be able to put a coherent theory forward. After over five thousand six hundred and something posts here you should be able to put your position forward coherently and completely with ease. I guess after 5000 posts you know better than to post any actual opinion on the myth theory since you realize it’s just wishful thinking.

Elijah

Your opinion on life after death is moot but who started the self sacrifice meme is a critical point in understanding how Christianity started.