Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 09-22-2010, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

I did try to address that with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

The problem is that to show that he had the power without him actually using it, which this passage does by saying even the disciples could do this but he was trying the forgiveness thing instead of the wrath deal.

There is nothing in Luke to indicate that Jesus has granted James and John the power to call forth lightning. Jesus had given a power to heal and to cast out demons to the disciples, but not general magic powers.

Elijah · 09-22-2010, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

There is nothing in Luke to indicate that Jesus has granted James and John the power to call forth lightning. Jesus had given a power to heal and to cast out demons to the disciples, but not general magic powers.

He doesn't grant them powers. Calling down fire is within the demonstrated limits of power for those who have the faith. Faith is where the power comes from in the story. Faith as small as a mustard seed can uproot trees and move mountains.

spamandham · 09-22-2010, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

He doesn't grant them powers. Calling down fire is within the demonstrated limits of power for those who have the faith. Faith is where the power comes from in the story. Faith as small as a mustard seed can uproot trees and move mountains.

I don't know where you're getting any of this. Nowhere does Jesus grant general magic powers to the disciples, and in this particular instance, it certainly is not an act of faith on the part of James and John. The 'faith of a mustard seed' saying is figurative rather than literal.

You are not being objective.

Elijah · 09-22-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

I don't know where you're getting any of this. Nowhere does Jesus grant general magic powers to the disciples, and in this particular instance, it certainly is not an act of faith on the part of James and John. The 'faith of a mustard seed' saying is figurative rather than literal.

You are not being objective.

Maybe taking it all figuratively is more rational but if you take the miracles or the proposed miracles literal then it is faith that is the source of the power. Jesus doesn't grant the powers to you, he teaches that you have that ability whenever you believe you do. Where else do you think the power/ability comes from to perform the miracles found in the gospels if not faith and why?

In what way am I not being objective?

Ferryman to the Dead · 09-22-2010, 03:15 PM

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Originally Posted by spamandham

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Originally Posted by Ferryman to the Dead

All falls back to Astrotheology, that the writers of the Bible used the stars and planets to establish their ancient religion.

From this perspective, James and John are ....Mercury and Mars? I don't find the astrotheological idea at all implausible, but I'd like to see support for it, specifically in regard to the sons of thunder.

Luke 22:10
10And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.

Astrology played a role in Luke as well as in verse 10, Chapter 22, in this verse its obvious that the man bearing a pitcher is Aquarius....

spamandham · 09-22-2010, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

[
Maybe taking it all figuratively is more rational but if you take the miracles or the proposed miracles literal then it is faith that is the source of the power. Jesus doesn't grant the powers to you, he teaches that you have that ability whenever you believe you do. Where else do you think the power/ability comes from to perform the miracles found in the gospels if not faith and why?

When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick

From a gLuke perspective, Jesus grants two specific magic powers to the disciples, healing and casting out of demons. This was an explicit granting of magic power, and not the result of faith on the part of the disciples. From gLuke's perspective, the general granting of magic power occurs after Jesus' resurrection.

I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.

All of this is irrelevant anyway, because the interesting thing about James and John is not the fact that they thought they had magic powers, but the specific power they thought they had - which was to summon lightning.

Littlejohn · 09-22-2010, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

This thread is dedicated to unraveling the mythology behind James and John, sons of Zebedee, also known as the "Sons of Thunder" - a clear reference to prodigy of Jupiter.

Luke 9:54
When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them ?"

Luke confirms what we should have guessed anyway, which is that these two characters are mythical sons of Jupiter, specifically the moniker Jupiter Tonens.

Any other thoughts/input?
.

I firmly believe that you are wrong .... The expression 'Sons of Thunder' WAS NOT referring to the father of the two 'apostles', but rather to the MOTHER! ...

Until the figure by the historical Jesus not will emerge from the 'fogs' of the New Testament, scholars, even the most capable, will continue to incurring into this kind of exegetical errors ...

Greetings

Littlejohn

.

judge · 09-22-2010, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

[
Written like a troo fundamentalist.
Step one: decide wht the text means.
Step two: go in search of support. :devil1:

"Sons of Thunder" is an unambiguous reference to prodigy of Jupiter. Only a fundamentalist would deny a simple and straightforward observation.

Sorry, on this board we deal with evidence. Let me know when you have evidence that demonstrates it is unambiguous.

judge · 09-22-2010, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Luke confirms what we should have guessed anyway, which is that these two characters are mythical sons of Jupiter, specifically the moniker Jupiter Tonens.

Any other thoughts/input?

You seem to be suggesting that there cannot be any other credible interpretation of what Luke says. I don't agree.

Sheesh, this just proves you are a fundamentalist. Didnt you read....

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Only a fundamentalist would deny a simple and straightforward observation.

Quick start the bonfire, what more evidence do we need? :devil1:

Toto · 09-22-2010, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

...

Sorry, on this board we deal with evidence. Let me know when you have evidence that demonstrates it is unambiguous.

What is your alternative possibility?

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