nermal

To what end? At the end of the day (ignoring the fitness benefits of ecstatic dancing) how is the Wiccan any better off? He knows himself better? Does that mean anything?

Meditation is a fine thing, and isn't limited to Wicca obviously. But if the Wiccan wants to put such energy into such things, then why not just do it, and cleave off all the religious pretentions? It's not like the religion is inseperable from the practice. The religion is a blatant construction, and Wiccans know that. It's window dressing.

Your point that fluffies aren't serious people in general is well taken. If they weren't dabbling at Wicca, they'd be (and will be soon enough anyway) dabbling at something else. My point is that the religion itself draws fluffies for a reason. It's insubstantial, it's not a cultural practice rooting a person to a people, which is what religion is at its best.

Ed

Shven

wicca didn't borrow from any existing religions (to begin with) - it made up its own Gods - the Lord and the Lady/the Goddess and the Horned God, whatever you want to call them.

I agree

Wiccans dont criticise non-wiccans 'just so'

Shven

brighid

There are qualitative end products of any ritual practice. It may not be able to make Gwenyth Paltrow fall in love with you, as no such "thing" can, but there are qualitative end products for the individual practitioner none the less. Any person, Wiccan or otherwise, that would make the ridiculous claim that they could make someone fall in love with you is nothing but a liar.

Wicca is not about "ceremony" and neither is spell casting, meditation, or any other ritual. Most people engage in ritual even if those don't realize it. People have bed-time rituals, love-making rituals, grooming and many other rituals even if not done by candle light or by the light of the moon. Ritual has a distinct purpose for the human mind and ultimately that is what the practice of meditation (which is a part of martial arts and neo-pagan practice), "ceremony", et al. It is ultimately about mind over body and self-improvement. It is barely different in martial arts practice even if by practicing martial arts I will learn skills different than practicing Wicca. It is about self-mastery. As one who practices both I can tell you that the analogy is certainly apt.

Brighid

nermal

You misunderstood. I meant criticizing people who do the practice, but don't do it the "right way." Fluffies. Superman fluffies.

Ed

Shven

I never said better off. I said she was doing a better job of altering her consciousness than the person thinking happy thoughts.

And? Windows look pretty dull by themselves.

No. wicca attracts fluffies because thats how its marketed. If it was marketed with the nudity and the tying up and the whipping and the ritual sex left in they wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Shven

Oh I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about Wiccans.

brighid

An person is much better off at the end of the day if she "knows" herself. Many of the problems people face in day-to-day life revolve around a lack of self-knowledge, confidence and action. It is easier to make decisions if one is not confused about what one really wants. One is able to move past obstacles if one is not mentally bogged down with negative thoughts that act as destructive mechanisms to action. One is able to attract the kind of mate one desires and one is much more capable of maintaining healthy relationships by knowing ones self and being true to ones self.

Why should a religious Wiccan practice in a way that makes you more comfortable? As a secular pagan I practice in this way because it something that speaks well to my personal, mental landscape. The archetypes resonate with me and I find meaning in those Jungian archetypes in ways that other archetypes are not meaningful. Furthermore I enjoy the ritual and I find personal benefit in it. Although meditation is part of ritual it is only a subset of actions that take place in ritual, and this varies from individual to individual and coven to coven. It is about personal exploration and freedom.

A practitioner certainly CAN seperate the religious aspects of this practice during meditation. I do it all the time, so do many others.

Religion, despite my dislike for it, is not insubstantial lest everyone would be a fluff bunny. It may lack substance for you, as well as for me, but for literally billions of people it has much substance (even if we disagree with the tenants of a faith, or it's belief structure.) It has the meaning an individual gives it.

Brighid

nermal

Now you're just taking the piss. Either that, or the concept of a simple analogy is beyond you. I'll leave it up to you which.

Ed

nermal

I don't know what that means. I suspect it doesn't mean anything beyond platitudes and fuzzy speak.

And what is it about the stuff Gardner made up that efficates this? How do symbols and drapes and ceremonies which aren't rooted in one's culture accomplish this?

A religious Wiccan should happily do what a religious Wiccan does. I have no qualms with that whatsoever. I was simply pointing out the irony, no the hypocrisy, of holding the above position while simultaneously bashing fluffies.

That's my point. The religious aspects are vapour. They're trinkets and recitations. The meat of what you're trying to do, as you explain it, is completely independent of the "religious" aspects, so why the baubles?

Again, in the absence of the supernatural, religion is a profound link to a cultural heritage. That's what gives it meaning. That's what is explicitly absent from Wicca. It's a hot air balloon, linked to nothing, using arbitrarily defined ceremonies to dress up and obfuscate what may be actually beneficial exercises which need no trappings for their proper practice.

Ed

Edited to remove the word "costumes." I don't know that many Wiccans wear costumes. I've been too much arguing with Satanists.

newtype_alpha

Oh dear

Never mind, it doesn't matter :huh:

If you do a love ceremony exactly so, someone will fall in love with you, that much is certain. As for Gweneth Paltrow.... :huh: why would you want to?