Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sauron · 03-23-2007, 07:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Very nice, very nice. But would you mind telling me why if an "ornament" was dropped by someone, why it wouldn't have been picked up? Don't you think the Jews cleaned up after themselves?

Because 2.5 million people - plus livestock - that camp for 38 years in the same place means that someone is going to drop some items that are never recovered. It's common sense, and it's how things happen everywhere else.

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As far as graves are concerned, do you think that after 3000 years those bones wouldn't have decomposed by now?

Perhaps not - the desert also dessicates and preserves dead animals. And don't forget the accoutrements of the burial - clothing, jewelry, etc.

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As far as the mass grave, archaeologists might find something if they dig in the right place deep enough.

They already have - they found nothing.

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BUT PLEASE, I'm asking sincerely. Besides some ornaments you presume the clumsy Jews would have left in mass for us to find now with nobody traveling through picking them up, WHAT would you expect to be left by a million people camping in the area that we should find today?

Pots. Fragments of pottery. Clothing. Spearheads. Jewelry. Animal bones. Animal implements. Human excrement.

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The only surviving items I would think that would survive would be pottery items or clay items, right?

Wrong.

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But what of those items would they have left behind in great quantity?

2.5 million people camped in one location for 38 years? that's five times the population of metropolitan Seattle, parked in one area. With their livestock. For 38 years. I expect a lot of things to be left behind.

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Could you just for fun, describe the camp as you see it, the day after they left for another location? Just what would you expect to see strewn about litering the place? I'd like to know your concept of that?

Thanks.

I have a better idea: why don't you read Finkelstein on this. From The Bible Unearthed:

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According to the biblical account, the children of Israel wandered in the desert and mountains of the Sinai peninsula, moving around and camping in different places, for a full forty years. Even if the number of fleeing Israelites (given in the text as six hundred thousand) is wildly exaggerated or can be interpreted as representing smaller units of people, the text describes the survival of a great number of people under the most challenging conditions. Some archaeological trace of their generation-long wandering should be apparent. However, except for the Egyptian forts along the northern coast, not a single campsite or sign of occupation frm the time of Ramesses II and his immediate predecessors and successors has ever been identified in Sinai. And it has not been for lack of trying. Repeated archaeological surveys in all regions of the peninsula, including the mountainous area around the traditional site of Mount Sinai, near Saint Catherine's Monastery, have yielded only negative evidence: not even a single sherd, no structure, not a single house, no trace of an ancient encampment. One may argue that a relatively small band of wandering Israelites cannot be expected to leave material remains behind. But modern archaeological techniques are quite capable of tracing even the very meager remains of hunter-gatherers and pastoral nomads all over the world. Indeed, the archaeological record from the Sinai peninsula discloses evidence for pastoral activity in such eras as the third millennium BCE and the Hellenistic and Byzantine periods. There is simply no such evidence at the supposed time of the Exodus in the thirteen century BCE.

The conclusion -- that the Exodus did not happen at the time and in the manner described in the Bible -- seems irrefurtable when we examine the evidence at specific sites where the children of Israel were said to have camped for extended periods during their wandering in the desert (Numbers 33) and where some archaeological indication -- if present -- would almost certainly be found. According to the biblical narrative, the children of israel camped at Kadesh-barnea for thirty eight of the forty years of the wanderings. The general location of this place is clear from the description of the southern border of the land of Israel in Numbers 34. It has been identified by archaeologists with the large and well-watered oasis of Ein el-Qudeirat in eastern Sinai, on the border between modern Israel and Egypt. The name Kadesh was probably preserved over the centuries in the name of a nearly smaller spring called Ein Qadis. A small mound with the remains of a late Iron Age fort stands at the center of this oasis. Yet repeated excavations and surveys through the entire area have not provided even the slightest evidence for activity in the Late Bronze Age, not even a single sherd left by a tiny fleeing band of frightened refugees.

Ezion-geber is another place reported to be a camping place of the children of Israel. Its mention in other places in the Bible as a later port town on the northern tip of the Gulf of Aqaba has led to its identification by archaeologists at a mound located on the modern border between Israel and Jordan, halfway between the towns of Eilat and Aqaba. Excavations here in the yeras 1938-1940 revealed impressive Late Iron Age remains, but no trace whatsoever of Late Bronze occupation. From the long list of encampments in the wilderness, Kadesh-barnea and Ezion-geber are the only ones that can be safely identified, yet they revealed no trace of the wandering Israelites.

spin · 03-23-2007, 08:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Thanks again. Noted you characterized my analysis as "voodoo"... :huh:

And then didn't bother to make a direct quote from your references, presumed to contradict my findings/conclusions.

I left it for those interested in finding out what the people in the know are arguing about. I do not advocate sufficiently unprovenanced sources.

spin

Kosh · 03-23-2007, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:

Would you believe 100?

How about 50?

How about 25, two mules and a dog?

RED DAVE

:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

Dude, the infinite wisdom of "Get Smart", totally lost on the younger generation.

Jayrok · 03-23-2007, 09:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Larsguy47
Point being, the fact is that the Jews were different. During this period their clothes did not wear out and they were eating manna before the quails came. ....Now FACE REALITY. If Moses said, "Okay, my brothers." We found a very nice wilderness here when we came. We have the reputation of Yahweh upon us, let's clean up our mess before we leave here. Let's leave this place cleaner than we found it to bring honor to our god and to ourselves.... Don't underestimate a Jewish clean up crew! They did such a good job, no archaeologist YET has been able to find any evidence the Jews were ever at Kadesh-Barnea!! And they were over a million people! That's amazing!

No evidence is available because they "cleaned" up after themselves for 40+ years? wtf? They turned to idols and away from God in the desert, but still kept their promise to Moses to keep the wilderness clean for God's sake? :rolling:

This guy is fishing for sucker arguments... He's trying to see how long he can string people along.. no way anyone is this naive.

spamandham · 03-23-2007, 10:34 PM

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Originally Posted by gnosis92

could exodus b historical if an exaggeration? say maybe 200 people leaving?

..or perhaps even just 1. I have little doubt that at least one person left Egypt 3000 or so years ago. The point regarding the Exodus is not that it is impossible that the story is a greatly exaggerated version of some real event, but, rather, that it could not have happened as described.

Most here are willing to accept that various Biblical stories could have some historical origin of some kind, made legendary over the years.

RED DAVE · 03-23-2007, 10:38 PM

From Larsguy47:

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Um. If the Jews didn't want their neighbors tracking them and they cleaned up after themselves, then WHAT would they have left. If they had trash, they would have burned it. The ashes could be used to make soap. Whey were they not an ecologically smart people. The Jews were OBSESSIVELY CLEAN! You know this.

As one of the few Jews on these boards, let me tell you that according to the positions taken by most modern Jews, you are basically full of it.

As to being an ecologically smart people, don't flatter us. And do you really think that 1-2 million people could wander around a relatively small area like the Negev and not be spotted? If you believe that, you've never visited a Jewish neighborhood in New York. Plenty of trash.

From Larsguy47:

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2000, no 4000 people could be on the beach for an all night party. It could potentially be a huge mess! But if they picked up after themselves then what is left to prove they were ever there? NOTHING.

This was not a beach party. Or if it was, it was the biggest one in history. In the case of Kadesh Barnea, it was allegedly a camp for over a million people for over 35 years. Do you really think that could be done without traces? If you do, you need to take Archeo 101. Hint: don't suggest this could be done if you want to pass the course.

From Larsguy47:

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You're superimposing cultural biases on what you think should have happened on what specifically might have happened. Point being, the fact is that the Jews were different. During this period their clothes did not wear out and they were eating manna before the quails came. You can't expect the same "evidence" from these people, especially during this time, as you might with some earlier, ecologically irresponsible people who left evidence of their messiness for all time.

So, basically, you're taking refuge behind miracles and historical fantasies. You have left the realm of archeology and science behind. Once you start that shit about manna, quails and garments that don't wear out, you may as well have us Jews checking in at the local UFO motel for 38 years. That would fit the evidence just as well.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

FACE REALITY. If Moses said, "Okay, my brothers." We found a very nice wilderness here when we came. We have the reputation of Yahweh upon us, let's clean up our mess before we leave here. Let's leave this place cleaner than we found it to bring honor to our god and to ourselves. Do the best you can. After we leave a special crew will come in and make sure nobody can tell we've ever been here.

Lesson: Don't underestimate a Jewish clean up crew! They did such a good job, no archaeologist YET has been able to find any evidence the Jews were ever at Kadesh-Barnea!! And they were over a million people! That's amazing!

Dude, you need to stop smoking that stuff before you post. A much better explanation is: there are no traces because it never happened.

RED DAVE

Larsguy47 · 03-23-2007, 11:42 PM

[QUOTE=RED DAVE;4290675]

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From Larsguy47:
This was not a beach party. Or if it was, it was the biggest one in history. In the case of Kadesh Barnea, it was allegedly a camp for over a million people for over 35 years. Do you really think that could be done without traces? If you do, you need to take Archeo 101. Hint: don't suggest this could be done if you want to pass the course.

Yes. I think it is reasonable they should have left some traces. But WHAT? You're not answering me. If I took Archeo 101, what kinds of things for the Jews, a nomadic people living in tents would have been expected to leave that would not have biodegraded in 3000 years?

Not clothes because they were not remaking their clothes.

Not pottery since I don't think they were making pottery, or would they have? They did have metal and wood options though.

Graves I would think, but were other graves found in the Negev from earlier times?

That's all I can think of. So tell me. WHAT is it that you think AT LEAST should be found there from their presence there?

Please be specific.

Thanks.

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From Larsguy47:
So, basically, you're taking refuge behind miracles and historical fantasies. You have left the realm of archeology and science behind. Once you start that shit about manna, quails and garments that don't wear out, you may as well have us Jews checking in at the local UFO motel for 38 years. That would fit the evidence just as well.

No, that's the history. If they said something happened, we give them the benefit of the doubt if we can't disprove it. Just like with Akhenaten. The Ten Plagues explains his switch to monotheism, yet the Ten Plagues were miraculous. OR the death in the Red sea of Amenhotep III with a thousand others, is implied in EA 29 letter that whatever happened to him at his death was in a "report" suggesting an infamous incident connected with his death along with others. So just because we doubt it doesn't mean we dismiss it. It just means in your list of what items at least you expect to be found you can't include clothing, that's all.

Thanks for the comments. Do you know anything specifically about the burial practices of the Jews that we can go by? I know sometimes they were buried in caves.

Larsguy47

Larsguy47 · 03-24-2007, 12:03 AM

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Originally Posted by figuer

After reading this I see no point whatsoever in trying to engage this person in a scientific discussion of archeological evidence. This individual lives in a parallel universe of fairies and pixies.

How can he even dare say such a thing as "Now FACE REALITY." and come up with a scenario of his own invention for which there is not even Biblical evidence????

I was just kidding. A little. Yawweh walked around the camp of the Jews and they were told to keep it clean.

Lev. 26:12 And I shall indeed walk in the midst of YOU and prove myself YOUR God, and YOU, on YOUR part, will prove yourselves my people."

Deut. 23:14 "For YHWH your God is walking about within your camp to deliver you and to abandon your enemies to you; and your camp must prove to be holy, that he may see nothing indecent in you and certainly turn away from accompanying you."

So cleanliness was part of their worship. A mandate. Certainly Moses would have paid attention to this and assigned elders to make sure of compliance in this regard. If they presumed God would have been displeased when they broke camp and left all kinds of discardables, they would have not done that. They would have burned everything they considered trash.

Ha! In fact, they must have! Otherwise, why would there be ash-heaps?

So again, it's logical and consistent with their mandate to be "holy" to keep the camp clean and Moses might have logically insisted that after they left an area it was cleaned up, though what would have been left behind and discarded that they wouldn't have burned already, I'm wondering?

So YOU tell me. What does the camp look like on the morning after they get up and leave Kadesh-Barnea. What do you see on the ground, some of which should have been in evidence today for us to find?

Larsguy47

Larsguy47 · 03-24-2007, 12:16 AM

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Originally Posted by Cege

I was thinking more along the lines of 23,000+ people wearing ornaments who died and were buried, or at worst, just left on the ground where they died. The dead wouldn't have picked up behind themselves and I doubt that the relatives remaining picked over their dead bodies. The bones and tissues might very well have decayed rather than been mummified over the thousands of years since, but the metal ornaments are likely to have remained at least partially intact, and in the tens of thousands in one place.

Yes. Now that makes sense! Were the dead buried with any kind of ornaments? Or were the ornaments passed on as heirlooms? That's reasonable.

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It seems reasonable that pottery and clay items would have remained behind, even if only in shards. From the families of millions of individual persons, that is a LOT of pieces. (in my native Southern U.S., we'd call that a 'whole lot')

Yes, that is what normally is found. But they were mandated to be clean and I'm wondering if grinding up the broken pottery for other uses wasn't employed?

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14 For Jehovah your God is walking about within your camp to deliver you and to abandon your enemies to you; and your camp must prove to be holy, that he may see nothing indecent in you and certainly turn away from accompanying you.

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When God directed thousands killed by the sword at one place, or inflicted a plague that killed tens of thousands at one place, it's reasonable to expect that bodies with metal ornaments, metal and stone swords, knives, spears, etc, were left behind in mass graves, or if they were left unburied, just left in that same place after the bodies decomposed away.

Yes, that seems reasonable as well. Hadn't thought of that.

Thanks.

In general, the whole period after the Exodus for several hundred years seems to be rather blank archaeologically for the Jews. I plan to research what we have found in the way of pottery and burial customs.

I think your arguments are reasonable even though you'd have to find the specific place where the people were swallowed up by the earth. Perhaps that will be found some day to confirm that.

I appreciate your sharing these views.

Larsguy47

Larsguy47 · 03-24-2007, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron

Because 2.5 million people - plus livestock - that camp for 38 years in the same place means that someone is going to drop some items that are never recovered. It's common sense, and it's how things happen everywhere else.

Perhaps not - the desert also dessicates and preserves dead animals. And don't forget the accoutrements of the burial - clothing, jewelry, etc.

They already have - they found nothing.

Pots. Fragments of pottery. Clothing. Spearheads. Jewelry. Animal bones. Animal implements. Human excrement.

Wrong.

2.5 million people camped in one location for 38 years? that's five times the population of metropolitan Seattle, parked in one area. With their livestock. For 38 years. I expect a lot of things to be left behind.

I have a better idea: why don't you read Finkelstein on this. From The Bible Unearthed:

[/i]

Thanks for the Finkelstein quote. I think I have my work cut out for me on this. I did pretty well with the pre-Exodus stuff but indeed, I'm wondering now why there is no trace of these people. What were they doing, if this really occurred, that promulgates not LB age trace of them?

I'm wondering though, if the Jews intended not to leave any trace of their being in the wilderness, would they have been able to effect that?

Thanks again!

Larsgury47

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