Evoken

Over the years I have always seen that the words skeptic and freethinker are held in contrast to Christianity as if they are mutually exclusive. And also the "brainwashed" and "ignorant" terms applied to Christians.

I was just wondering if those of you who hold to this view could please explain the reasons for this. I know not all atheist hold this view, but i'd be interested in hearing some opinions about it so that we may discuss (not debate) this matter.

For a jumpstart, I will provide the definitons of both words:

free·think·er
One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation.

skep·tic also scep·tic
One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.

One inclined to skepticism in religious matters.

------------Taken from: http://www.dictionary.com


Have a good one,
Asimis

Deacon Doubtmonger

Let's start by keeping in mind that freethinkers and skeptics weren't the first to hold this view. Xianity boldly declared faith and reason to be squarely opposed from the get-go, only they held up the "faith" side as the more virtuous. (Any freethinker holding reason to be the more virtuous, of course, would have been imprisoned, tortured and/or killed at the time.) Let's look at the four best-known bible verses on this issue:

And even though this one is actually jesus' reply to satan in a supernatural temptation scene, it still gets thrown generically at anyone today who questions too much:

DD

"We'd outgrown the fables, I knew. The sun isn't Apollo's chariot, of course: it's a star that began burning when a god said Let there be Light. Man was not created from clay by Zeus, he was created from clay by Yahweh. Hades didn't restore Euridice to life, please. That would be absurd. Jesus did, of course, restore Lazarus to life.... What morons we were before. How wise we are now." -- Dale McGowan

Gurdur

As an atheist, I don't think Christians are necessarily not freethinkers --- for example, Bishop Spong, possibly the poster Anitra on this board, and some of the 13th and 14th century women mystics; you can't get much more freethinking than those.
I happen to think much of Christianity is antithetical to freethinking in practice, and much in theory as well. However, I grant that is not 100 %.
As an atheist, I will note that some Christians certainly seem to brainwash themselves ("the struggle with doubt"), others seem all in favour of brainwashing others --- but I grant that is far from 100 % of Christians.

As for ignorant, that very much depends on whom you're describing. Certainly, the majority of Christians do not seem ignorant; willful ignorance seems the province of a small but vocal minority.

As for my own reasons for holding my views: present-day observation and historical study.

Evoken

Christianity does not puts reason and faith against each other but to work in harmony. And besides Christianity is a rational religion, but in any case my concern here is not to discuss Christianity but the way the Christian behaves or what are the reasons why a Christian can't be a freethinker and/or skeptic.

The problem is not with questioning, it is alright and even good to question. The problem is when this "questioning" turns into annoyance. Christianity encourages questioning, what it does not supports is "rebellious questioning".

Evoken

Yes there are many good examples. I have read a couple of Anitra's posts and agree with most of what she writes.

Of course, a 100% is not a common in any group be it religious or secular. I am curious tho as to why do you think some Christians "brainwash" themselves or others.

Well, that is true, but I was wondering for the reasons that Christians can't be freethinkers/skeptics. This is a view that is adopted by both atheist circles and other more occult theists circles as well it has become a trend of sorts.

Biff the unclean

Really? Where does that happen? Where in the Bible does it tell you to think for yourself instead of following the orders of authority? Where does it consider your intelligence to be a good thing? Where does it advise you to question?
You cannot produce a God nor any evidence of a Jesus, that isn't what makes a religion rational. A religion that prides itself on faith because of it's complete lack of evidence is not rational
Freethinkers, as the name implies do their own thinking, for better or worse.
Christians belong to a religion. Religions codify and structure what thought is allowed. That's why in "Sins of thought, word and deed," sins of thought is named first.
Skeptics question.
Christians are required to have faith. Faith is acceptance without question, which is the opposite of skepticism.
If you are only allowed to ask certain preapproved questions then your freedom of inquiry (free thinking) is a fake

Evoken

Oh you can be sure that from Genesis to Revelation, but like I said I am not here to discuss Christianity. This topic is to discuss why it is assumed that Christians can't be freethinkers/skeptics.

Ah..this is more like it. It seems to me that to you, being a freethinking and openminded person is adopting an atheist worldview, something that in my eyes is in itself contradictory to what freethinking and skepticism imply. What if I told you that belief in God is a reasonable conclusion? Or that I believe because I understand? Does that makes me a brainwashed Christian?

It is wrongly assumed that the Christians don't question their own religion or that nobody can become a Christian by questioning Christianity and the world.

After all by the meaning you attach for the freethinker that is something everyone does everyday. The fact that your view is either the least common or the most radical does not makes you anymore freethinker than anyone else. You are bound to the same influences as everyone else.

As for the skeptic, I agree that it is to question, doubt and test already established things. But must the skeptic turn into a cynic and never feel satisfied and say..have faith? There must be a point where the skeptic is "satisfied" and this varies from person to person, what satisfies you does not necessary has to satisfy me and vice.

I agree that it is good and even necessary to test and question already established things but to arrive at a conclusion of those very things one questions and not to be always questioning testing the same thing without arriving at a conclusion like some sort of "proof" to show your skepticism. This is what I meant by "rebellious questioning", when you do that you are no longer looking for the truth but merely for an answer that satisfies your own predisposed view of what the truth should be.

I also agree that people should question more things and form their opinion or base their beliefs on the results of their questioning, testing, etc.

trendkill

Maybe the reason it is assumed is because the people doing the assuming look from Genesis to Revelation and see nothing promoting freethought.

Evoken

I see..well can you then tell me what promotes freethought? I am not assuming you are one of them but I think you may have an idea.

Biff the unclean

I can be sure because I have studied the book intensely. Free thinking, independent thought, is not only frowned upon, it's a sin. It's the original sin.

You have that backwards. An Atheistic world view is the result of free thinking not the cause.

I would smile to myself and wait three or four back and forth posts until you told me that God is beyond human reason.

I would wait two more back and forth posts for you to declare that God was beyond human understanding.

You are making what are pretty common boasts for Christians on this board. What may appear to be only snide replies on my part are what has actually happened every single time I've seen a Christian say the same thing here.

It would appear so, but feel free to surprise me.

Nobody can become a Christian by comparing what Christianity asserts against the actual world

Sure you do it with every thought about every subject, every day. Except for religion, then you suspend thought and rely on faith. With no other subject would you ever consider doing such a thing. In fact you probably consider people who behave as you do towards Christianity towards other aspects of their lives to be a bit nutty.

The fact that you belong to a codified and structured belief system prevents you from free thought. That's why it's called a belief.
If the two of us were in a quandary about something only one of us has an instruction book that tells him what to think and what to do. The other is left to his own devices. I do not submit to the same influences you surrender yourself to.

I was wondering how long it would be before you equated skepticism with cynicism. You obviously don't see skepticism as a positive attribute. Jesus took Thomas to task for the mildest of skepticism after all. I'm expecting you to soon mix the different definitions of the word "faith."

Some folks are very gullible. So gullible in fact that they consider their gullibility, their "faith", to actually be a virtue

I cannot imagine that I could be so ego centric, so vain, that I assumed that I considered my knowledge was absolute and unchanging. I could not imagine being so closed minded that new data would be incapable of making me alter my opinions.

Actually when you don't do that it means you have already settled for the answer you like and have lost interest in finding the truth.

Sorry, but you previous statements make me doubt that you really mean that.