spin

Not all christians are rabid, Andrew. I'm only talking of those who've reacted to the proposition that it is an interpolation.

Grog

Maybe if you included more pictures? Pictures with arrows and explanations on the back. That would probably help.

Tom Sawyer

What? Christians seeing themselves persecuted and oppressed when that's not really happening?

I don't believe it. This is just one more conspiracy theory to help further beat Christians down.

rdalin

Is it working? Are they all beaten down yet?

Vorkosigan

She has a new book out. Here's a review:

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/24/the_...nt_persecuted/

Diogenes the Cynic

I think this quote from the article pretty well nails it. Any disagreement equals "persecution," and if they're persecuted they must be right.

I think there's a kind of smug superiority to the Christian Persecution Complex. There's nothing genuine about it. It's just self-aggrandizing, self-justifying, passive-aggressive bigotry and self-validation. It's also a defense against criticism because the criticism is being spoken by "persecutors" and can therefore be dismissed.

mountainman

It is fabricated history: pseudo-historical polemic.

It represents only part of the output of a 4th century forgery mill.

An old thread: The Imperial Persecution of "Early Christians" - A Critical Review of the evidence



[T2]{r:bg=lightgray}{c:bg=slategray;ah=center}Roman Emperor
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{c:ah=center}Years Ruled CE
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{c:ah=center}Sources/Evidence of "Christian Persecution"
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Notable Christians executed
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Arguments Against the historicity of the Persecution
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{c:bg=RoyalBlue}1. Nero
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64 to 68
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Tacitus' Annals XV.44 (11th century - second Medicean manuscript); Suetonius, Lives, Nero, 16;
Early Christian writers such as Tertullian, Lactantius, Sulpicius Severus, Eusebius, St. Augustine
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Any names here?
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Arthur Drews, Jay Raskin, Earl Doherty (others???)
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{c:bg=RoyalBlue}2. Domitian
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89 to 96
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Dio Cassius (67.14.1-2); execution of Flavius Clemens, a Roman consul and cousin of the Emperor, and the banishment of his wife, Flavia Domitilla, to the island of Pandateria, for "atheism" ("athotes") and practising Jewish customs ("ta ton Ioudaion"). Also there is the Anonymous Author of the Acts of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Theologian
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Dionysius the Areopagite (the appointed Bishop of Athens); Timothy the disciple of Paul and Bishop of Ephesus; Simeon, Bishop of Jerusalem; and Nicomedes, a Christian of distinction at Rome.
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Many people reject the Dio Cassius reference as not christian. But also see Acts of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Theologian where the Emperor Domitian receives complaints about a new and strange nation of Christians in the form of a book written by the Jews which sends him into such a rage he persecutes the new and strange nation of Christians. This is satire pulp fiction.
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{c:bg=RoyalBlue}3. Trajan
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98 to 117
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Pliny, Letters 10.96; Trajan in Pliny, Letters 10.97
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Phocas, Bishop of Pontus; Alexander, Bishop of Rome; and Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch (traditionally one of the children Christ held in his arms; a disciple of the Apostle John).
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Is the Pliny correspondence legit? Meaning of deaconesses in Pliny
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{c:bg=RoyalBlue}4. Marcus Aurelius
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161 to 180
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Lyon (177 CE), Eusebius HE, 5.1.5,7.
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Justin Martyr, the Philosopher; Appolonius a Roman Senator; Fructuosus, Bishop of Tarragon on the east coast of Spain; and Polycarpus, a convert of the Apostle John who served the Lord for 60 years as a prominent teacher and evangelist. He died a martyr at age 86.
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Jay Raskin (Eusebius forged the Lyon letter)
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{c:bg=RoyalBlue}5. Commodus, Pertinax, and Julianus
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200 to 201
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Sources?
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Leonidas, father of Origen, and two of Origen's friends (Plutarchus and Serenus).
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Generally discounted because the Catholic Church was being favored in the same period = a 'golden age' for orthodoxy says Eusebius (stephan huller)
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{c:bg=RoyalBlue}6. Septimius Severus
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193 to 211
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Sources?
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Clement of Alexandria; Perpetua and Felicity; Leonides
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.
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{c:bg=RoyalBlue}7. Maximinus and Gordian
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235 to 235
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Pope Pontian and Hippolytus banished to the island of Sardinia. The Roman Senator Pammachius, his entire family, and 42 others were all beheaded in a single day and their heads spiked on the city gates. Also executed were Senator Simplicius; Quiritus, a Roman nobleman. and his entire family; Martina a noblewoman; and Hippolitus, a Christian prelate.
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Pontianus, Bishop of Rome, Anteros (his succesor), Pammachius, etc
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.
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{c:bg=RoyalBlue}8. Decius
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249 to 251
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edict 249 and 250 CE re: sacrifice to the emperor with certificate (libellus)
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Fabian, Bishop of Rome, Cyril, Bishop of Gortyna on Crete; Babylas, Bishop of Antioch; and Alexander, Bishop of Jerusalem. Origen was tortured but not executed.
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Do we have the edict? What does it actually say?
None of these libelli have been shown to have any relation to "christianity".
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{c:bg=RoyalBlue}9. Valerian
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253 to 260
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edict (257 CE); P. Oxy 3035 (256 CE).
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Stephen, Sextus, and Laurentius, Bishops of Rome, and Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage. Laurentius (St. Lawrence) was archdeacon under Sextus.
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Do we have the edict? What does it actually say?
P. Oxy 3035 refers to a "ChrEstian" (Or was it something else avi?)
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{c:bg=RoyalBlue}10. Aurelian and Diocletian (through his co-ruler Maximian)
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270 to 270
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Sources? Maximian executed an entire legion of 6000 soldiers (The Theban Legion) when they refused to join a sacrifice because they had accepted Christ;
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St. Alban of England at Verulam, now St. Albans
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The Theban Legion legend is stretching credulity to the limit. Is this Eusebius finding more documents?
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{c:bg=RoyalBlue}11. Diocletian and Galerius
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284 to 305
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Eusebius VC and HE
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St. Sebastian and St. George of England executed?
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The persecution was triggered off by Christians interfering with the Oracles of Apollo by "special powers". The oracles had fallen silent because of the "Righteous Ones" were present. Diocletian asked his priests who these "Righteous Ones" were. The Priest of Apollo declared them to be the "Christians". Diocletian got real mad and started stomping on christians. This appears similar to a Public Relations exercise to make the previous government of Diocletian look bad. Its typical of new revolutionary governments to run a smear campaign against the old brigade.
[/T2]

stephan huller

I think there were persecutions of Christians in the late second and third centuries. I don't think it was 'across the board' persecutions. I think they were 'tactical assaults' paralleled by similar Imperial ecumenical efforts in the Jewish and Samaritan communities in the period. I don't see how one can imagine that the government of any period did not wade into religious controversies - especially during the chaotic third century.

mountainman

The Roman government persecution of the Manichaeans in the eastern empire is well attested towards the end of the 3rd century. When Eusebius wrote there was a real political memory of religious persecution of the followers of a holy man who (after 30 years of mission) was crucified in the Persian capital city, who had apostles, who had established churches (monasteries) based on the Gospel of Mani, Epistles to his [Manichaean] Apostles and other [Manichaean canonical] texts.

What's the evidence? ........................ [Eusebius VC and HE: persecution of St. Sebastian; St. George of England executed?]



Speaking of 'tactical assaults' it's typical of new revolutionary governments to run a smear campaign against the old brigade.

The old brigade were "The [pagan] Persecutors".

The new brigade led the Christian crusade against the "last of the persecutors".

stephan huller

The problem is that the information from the third century is generally bad. If we ignore your 'solution' to the origins of Christianity you have to imagine Christianity expanding in a period of absolute chaos in the Empire. The Christians claim that they were persecuted. The Samaritans claim that they were persecuted. Why disbelieve the Samaritans? Why disbelieve the Christians? It doesn't seem to be out of the realm of possibilities.

Take the rise of Zenobia and her association with Paul of Samosata/Antioch or parallel stories of absolute chaos in Alexandria during this period. Some Christians picked the wrong horse and presumably there were consequences for their decisions. Why are these things unbelievable?