RussianM3_dude

I always hear Muslims whine, as to how unfairly they were treated by the Christians, crusaders targeting the Holy Land with numerous expeditions. ("But Islam spread through the world through love!")

However I have never heard the Catholics acknowledge a series of Crusades in anothe rpart of the world. The Baltic. The Teutonic and Livonic night orders were set up to combat the pagans and heretics in territories that are todays Poland, Baltic countries and Russia.

Russia itself was not touched a great deal, since in 1242 Alexander Nevsky (one of the greatest Russian heroes incidentally) trounced the catholic invaders on approaches to Novgorod. No other large invasion ever occured.

Howerver even after Poland became Catholic, the crusades continued untill final defeat of the Teutonic order in1410 by a combined Polish,Lithuanian and Russian army.

The Livonic order soldiered on untill Ivan the Terrible defeated it in the 16th century.

It is funny, that in one of Connan Doyle's books (the dude that wrote Sherlock Holmes) one of the Protagonists sets of for a Crusade in Lithuania.

I wonder if the Brezhnev of Vatican would ever pull on a diper, face the media and appoligise for what was done to fellow Christians, however incoherent he may be.

Koyaanisqatsi

So, what's the thrust here, tvaritsch? What has the Catholic Poop got to do with Muslim cult members complaining about how they were treated by the Christian cult members? The Muslim cult members should be grateful they weren't treated as poorly by the Catholic cult leaders as splinter Christian cult members were?

:huh:

Philippe*

Yes, the baltic states were the last countries to be converted, christian teutonic knights roamed throughout these hostile pagan lands with their swords "convert or die". And countries like Latvia have still strong pagan roots in their culture, there has been a pagan revival since the 20th century.

Philippe

Philippe*

We tend to forget, but among the first cultures to be harmed by christianity there were the european ones. We have fallen in dark ages for centuries thanks to the bigotry of the Church.

Philippe

J-D

The territory which the Crusaders seized from the Muslims by force was territory which the Muslims themselves had seized by force before that. The Muslims weren't the first to seize it by force and the Crusaders weren't the last. Indeed, most land title all over the world derives, historically speaking, from seizure by force.

Sarpedon

While your at it, see if you can get them to apologize for sacking constantinople and screwing over the orthodox church.

Then again, what use do these after-the fact apologies and false contrition accomplish?

Agemegos

There are lots of other crusades as well. For example, the reconquest of the Iberian peninsula from 1059 to 1492. Various efforts to turn back the Turks after the fall of Constantinople, especially one ending in ignominy in 1399. The conquest of the County of Toulouse by the Kingdom of France 1208-1228 ("Albigensian Crusade") and, if memory serves, at least one invasion of England by France.

penumbra

I'm not sure of the thrust, but as a point of clarification, it didn't start out as Catholic cult vs. "splinter Christian cult"; it began as Catholic vs. pagan

http://66.188.129.72:5980/History/Pr.../lithuania.htm

Really? That's kinda cool. Any web sites you can point me to for more info? I'm thinking about a trip to Lithuania in another couple of years.

Astreja

King Olaf of Norway (a.k.a. "Saint" Olaf) committed numerous atrocities against the non-Christian members of his own kingdom at the turn of the last millenium. Homes and temples burned, men and women tortured and murdered... And, according to some reports, forced Christianization of Iceland by holding hostage the visiting sons of Icelanders.

He also called his fiancée Sigrid a heathen bitch, and slapped her. (Later, as Queen of Sweden, she helped organize the military alliance that defeated him. You go, girl!)

Scandinavia was one of the last parts of Europe to be overrun by the Christians. And a lot of the resisting forces were refugees from territories that had been overrun by Charlemagne.

We're ba...aack! :devil1: And we're mad as Hel and we aren't gonna take it any more.

Not as much as financial restitution. Weregild! I want weregild!!

Philippe*

You can google it, I find :

http://vinland.org/heathen/pagancee/dievturi.html

http://vinland.org/heathen/pagancee/

There is a difference between actual eastern and western european pagan revival, on the whole the former seems more "authentic", less magic-oriented, so more ethnocentric and traditionalist, some people are in search for their roots. I know in Eastern Europe such Russia large gatherings happen and everybody is dressed in folk clothes.

I remember latvian folk music is also rather pagan-oriented. Their language is the closest european one to the old sanskrit too.

Philippe