diana

This began from a discussion that sprang up in the lounge on the ThankASoldierWeek.com thread. I saw there a great deal of vitriol toward people who serve in the military, and at least one of these angry citizens has actually expressed the notion that being in the military is immoral. I've chosen to shift this discussion here because I believe this is an interesting moral question and because the standards of behavior are, I believe, much higher in this forum.

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I think the support for this idea--that being in the military is, in and of itself, immoral--is that it is a war machine, and simply by joining you lose your ability to refuse to participate in conflicts/wars/police actions/etc that you are morally opposed to--which is true in its strictest sense. You do, of course, have the right and the responsibility to refrain from actions in violation of the Law Of Armed Conflict and you are required to turn in anyone who violates them to your knowledge, so this idea that simply joining the military must, perforce, pertain to the larger scale of what you believe is moral or immoral.

I find this idea interesting. I'm not sure if I agree or not, to be honest. If I agree, then I must also acknowledge that I myself am immoral, as I am military. That may be true, because I did deploy in support of Operation IRAQI FREEDOM. Even if I hadn't, I support the war effort from my desk stateside, anyway. I also support Operation ENDURING FREEDOM and all others, including tsunami, earthquake, flood and hurricane relief efforts. In what I do, I touch everything, both good and bad. I accept personal responsibility for my part in both.

While I realize threads stemming from such a touchy subject as the Iraq War are prone to descend into yet another discussion of how wrong we were to go there in the first place, et cetera, be advised that:

1. I am aware of all the arguments, pro and con, and
2. I don't want this thread to go there.

The questions I have are these:

1. Do you consider it immoral to be a part of the military? Why or why not?
2. How do you believe the military should function so as to make it both moral and effective?

I assume all contributers understand that we must have a military. The questions before the court are whether joining is immoral and how best to run the military.

d

PoodleLovinPessimist

The most disturbing thing to me about the military is the requirement of following orders. Although there are legal protections in place, the burden of proving an order illegal rests almost entirely on the one would refuse, and there is a very strong presumption that he or she is wrong. Furthermore, the penalties for refusing a legal order, even in good conscience, are extremely severe.

Any person in the military, enlisted or officer, forfeits a huge amount of social protection for his or her moral autonomy. In no other occupation, including dangerous occupations such as law enforcement, firefighting, or construction, are the social protections for moral autonomy so thin.

The only two occupations that have much analogy are legal practice and medicine. But in those cases, a practicioner is ceding his moral authority to a well-defined system, not to the orders of a superior.

I don't know if it's possible to have a military without this strong reliance on obediance. It does seem, however, that obedience does make it easier to misuse a military.

As a side note, I do think the war in Iraq is morally wrong. However, I cannot condemn any individual soldier for participating. I definitely have not risked my life or freedom to stop the war; I can't in good conscience demand that a soldier do the same.

PoodleLovinPessimist

It would be odd if one both admitted that a military was necessary and held it immoral in all cases to join one.

PoodleLovinPessimist

What are the functions we traditionally apply to the military? Several spring to mind:

1. Protecting the territory of one's country from foreign coercion
2. Assisting one's allies in protecting their territory from foreign coercion
3. Performing dangerous or unpleasant jobs both in and out of the country
4. Promoting and defending the interests (whatever those happen to be) of one's own government and allied governments

The first three functions seem relatively uncontroversial. It is the fourth which is problematic. It also seems obvious that we could fulfill the first three tasks with a military a fraction of its current size. It would appear that much, if not most, of our military power is devoted to protecting and defending the interests of our and various other governments other than territorial sovereignty.

Rayven_Alandria

I thought the comments in the other thread were rather ridiculous. To make a blanket statement that serving in the military is immoral is just asinine.

Granted, there are times when the military is used for less than stellar reasons, just as our police forces are...I think it's rare, but it does happen. But to use those incidents as an excuse to declare that serving in the military or being a police officer etc...is immoral in and of itself it so stupid it doesn't even deserve a response.

I feel that protecting and serving society are moral acts. Without those willing to protect us we would have absolutely no safety.

I now know what it feels like first hand to have all safeguards taken away and to live in a society with no protectors. I don't EVER want to feel that way again. After Hurricane Katrina we had no law, no protection...no safety. The police officers could not even keep in contact with each other. We were all totally disconnected and off the grid...An island of madness cut off from the rest of the world. You could not call 911...you could not report crimes...you could not do anything but sit with a gun at your window and hope looters didn't come your direction. It was a nightmare.

Then you wanna know what happened? The military came rolling in full force and locked the place down...TIGHT. People in the military directing traffic cuz there were no lights...people in the military giving us food and water so we didn't die....people in the military PROTECTING OUR ASSES. Serving in the military immoral? Ha...fuck anyone who says such an evil thing. I wish they would of been here, they would not feel that way now...I promise you.

Hmmmm...then again if people that say such things have such low moral standards that they would say such things...they probably would of been one of the fucking looters.

PoodleLovinPessimist

It seems premature at least to argue against comments made in another thread, especially since diana has apparently started this thread precisely to distance the topic from those comments.

I don't think it's rare. Perhaps not the majority of cases, but definitely more than I'm comfortable with.

I think it's a pretty good argument. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't think it's either stupid or immoral to make it. If it were true that an organization were predominantly used for evil purposes, then I think you have a good argument against joining that organization.

One issue is whether the military is predominantly used or intended for that purpose.

I'm definitely glad the military protected you. That they do at times have useful and valuable tasks is certainly a positive argument. However, it is overblown to try to shut down a rational conversation for emotional reasons.

You're sounding like George "You're either with or against us" Bush.

Rayven_Alandria

Um...she started this thread because of what was said in the other thread. I was just making further comment on it. Perhaps she does want to look at the issue in more depth, but I doubt she would mind my making comments on the original comment that started this debate. It's sort of relevant you know...kinda the point of this thread.

That's a matter of perspective. I don't share it. We disagree. The world keeps spinning.

Again...a matter of perspective. I disagree with you...again.

True.

Your comment doesn't make sense. My stating FACTS doesn't equate to using emotions to shut down an argument....I just accentuated the facts with my personal emotional response to the reality I was in. Debate IS emotional to a certain degree...we all feel passionate about what we feel or we wouldn't bother arguing about it. Telling me I should not have emotions behind my beliefs is rather goofy dontcha think? We all have them. Mine just happen to backed up with pure fact...I think that's what you didn't like. It's hard to argue with what I said so let's pick it apart and cry about it being unfair because I have emotions. Ummm...yea.

Okay, I can give ya this one...I took a parting jab.

Ronin

Hey Rayven

I just wanted to let you know that local law enforcement maintained police radio communications throughout and that the Gulfport Police Department made over 100 caught in the act looting arrests in the first few days and nights during the aftermath of Katrina and well prior to the military arriving and basically providing traffic assistance and standing on post to keep gawkers from going south of the tracks. This is in no way meant to detract from their value and our appreciation for their assistance which was very much needed.

:thumbs:

Your neighborhood was monitored continuously and I am personally working the only looting case that occurred in your subdivision. There may have been one or two looting arrests stemming from a GI observation, however, the vast majority were made by the local paladins.

All officers remained on 12 hour shifts before, during and after this destructive natural event even though some of their own homes were completely destroyed and they had their own family concerns to deal with.

GPD had Gulfport locked down tight, my friend, and we certainly appreciated all the backup we got in the coming weeks from the military and other volunteer LE agencies from all over...so that we locals could finally stop where we dropped and get some deserved rest.

Protecting and serving are moral acts, in my view, though one cannot please all of the people all of the time and morality is subjective. Situational dynamics can also be an obstacle to any blanket statement on career choice.

starling

Assassins are more moral than soldiers. Assassins betray people's trust, infiltrate into the closest confidences with their enemy, then kill the guilty leader. Soldiers kill mostly innocent people, and almost never the bastard who deserves it. They're not just immoral, soldiers are... pitiful.

Of course, possibly the noblest person is one who our country forces to be a soldier, either through economic, physical, or emotional coercion, who then fails to do their job, kills noone, and doesn't help the spread of any tyrannical regimes. That leads to the scary conclusion that John Kerry's argument that he was a vicious killer in Vietnam, whereas George W. Bush was an alcoholic rich boy who bought his way out of service, actually made me more inclined to vote for the GWB.

TySixtus

Do you have a shred of evidence to back up a single assertion you made in the above paragraph?

They're called "books". Read some.

Ty