Mageth

Why would this not also apply to the theist? In other words:

Tristen

To define atheists as having "arrogant, deluded, inflated image of self imporance" - is quite frankly ignorant. I was baptized christian as a baby - grown up and find it to be bs. Why? Not because of a "arrogant, deluded, inflated image of self imporance" - but because if you apply logic to the statements the bible makes, the bible is gibberish, contradicting itself. Now i'm not an atheist per se, i'm more agnostic. Christianity devised a religion which dosen't make sense (to me atleast, clearly it does to some people...) but this dosen't mean the existence of a God is refuted. Just means we still don't know.

Bill B

To me, this post simply reeks of arrogance--the type of arrogance which literally shouts out "I have a special and personal relationship to my creator. I transcend the process of evolution and natural selection. I am fundamentally different than pigeons, dogs, cows, the lassa virus, and termites etc. And how dare anyone be arrogant enough to suggest that I am wrong." An atheist humbly admits his cosmological ignorance. Why can't you?

I think your post nicely proves the correctness of the fundamental point raised by Stephen T-B-- that those with theistic and atheistic worldviews see the opposing viewpoint in vastly different ways. To me, every fibre of my being tells me that your worldview is the very definition of arrogance. To you, my worldview is the very definition of arrogance.

Conclusion--- I don't see how to move the ball forward. I guess we agree to disagree.

Evoken

Yeah we both simply see things differently perhaps even from entirely opposing viewpoints, but maybe that is not true and goes a bit too far. I think it is simply much better if we just agree to disagree, I regularly don't take statements like the ones you made in post #4 on this thread in such a way, it was just that yesterday I was not in the right mood..thats all.

I understand what you mean when you say that: "the truth doesn't cares what you or I thinks" it very much like Objectivism which states: "things are what they are" and that "existence exists". While I agree with those statements the context in which I use them and to what I apply them to is different from your own. But I am not sure if you are an Objectivist, but in any case thanks for accepting my apology, know there are really no hard feelings.

Triple Six

The theist is wrong because a considerable number of claims his religion make are demonstrably wrong on scientific and historical grounds. I'll repeat this, wrong as in clearly untrue. That is why this atheist rejects religious explanations because there is no point in backing a deeply flawed proposition, simple as that. I am not "arrogant" enough to assume that we know everything about the origins of the universe yet and acknowledge that speculation is involved. None the less the current theories at least involve logical reasoning and scientific consistency behind them. No doubt they will be improved and some parts discarded but they haven't been discredited yet, unlike theist ones.

Spuleah on the other hand blindly attacks atheists for the lack of knowledge while failing to see the infinitely larger number of gaps and faults in his own position, that's arrogance for you.

Classical

I'm glad to check back in and see the discussion seems to be going well.

Some of the most obvious points I agree with is that it takes courage to face life without belief in god or an afterlife.

Recently my aunt lost a son, and she has never been very religious as far as I've ever known, but all she could say to me was "I would have never made it through without God."

Obviously, I didn't say anything to the contrary, but I couldn't help but think how this showed such delusion and cowardice.

I wanted to ask: "how did god help you through this? please explain. It is very clear that her delusion helped her through.

Knowing many christians, I have found them to be some of the most arrogant, rude, self-centered, opinionated, stubborn and uncaring people I have ever known. I've known few who could continue any type of pretense of kindness once you have questioned their wonder jesus religion. This does not apply to all by any means, but A LOT I have known in my family, among friends and in places of leadership.

I have not met nearly as many atheists, but I have found them to be quite the opposite so far. Because they are not forgiven no matter what they do, they seem to be much more compassionate and mindful of the fact that we are here only briefly and how important our actions are to those around us.

mirage

Quite the opposite. I was responding to an accusation of inflated self-important arrogance from you believers, pointing out, as Stephen TB has done in a more balanced way, that the arrogance depends on your perspective. I don't think most believers are arrogant any more than atheists. But I would at least point out elements in the belief system that coincidentally place humankind at the very center of the universe. The atheist position is that we have insufficient evidence for any such belief, which is a natural null position that can hardly be described as arrogant.

Ahab

Maybe. Seems to me you are being a little harsh on your Aunt. Losing a child to death is one of the most difficult things anyone has to go through. I know that for myself it is the worst nightmare I can imagine. I'd rather have anything happen to me rather than seeing my son pass on before me. Is this rational? No. But that's how I feel about it. I've also talked to a number of people who have lost children and have told me it was the hardest thing they've had to go through.

As an atheist, I agree with you. There was no real God helping her, it was all in her head.
But I'm with John Lennon on this one: whatever gets you through the night. Sounds like your aunt is having to go through a very dark night of her life.

Can't say that matches my experiences. I've found scoundrels and saints in both camps.

OdysseusTheInnkeeper

Instead of "evaluating" our opinions, why don't you think about your questions for yourself? Look inside and see what's real on your own. Think for yourself.

newtype_alpha

(Subtitles): Yet another non-biblical conclusion


I don't consider myself wise for understanding what seems perfectly obvious in this statement. The people who first followed Jesus were naive and gullible and more readily accepted his message than people who (graced with common sense) would have known better. You can make this same observation of--say-- David Koresh or Mathew Hale, both of whom were "persecuted for their beliefs" same way Jesus was. (Probably more deservedly in Hale's case than Koresh.)

Am I wise for recognizing the mentality of a cult leader? I don't think so, although I do consider it "wise" to be honest about your opinions