dog-on

The "function" of the story itself is irrelevant, Jeffery and has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not said story is a fiction.

So you disagree with my criteria?

Jeffrey, do you wish to assert that such a story is possible and not simply a fiction? Please do so, for the record.


Thanks.

Jeffrey Gibson

It has everything to do with it, especially if the truth of what is being asserted in the story -- that Augustus deserves to be recognized as "divine" and is, according to Roman perception of things, a "Son of God" -- is not dependent upon the historicity of certain of its constituent elements.

Assuming I've outlined them correctly, I disagree that they are applicable when we are asking what the ancients thought the author of the story was saying and whether or not they thought the claim asserted in it regarding the "divinity" of Augustus was "true"?

Possible according to whom? and under what criteria or understanding of the nature of the world?

Jeffrey

dog-on

Ok, our wires are crossed.

I asked SM what the ancients may have thought about these stories, as I have no personal knowledge regarding just how the ancient people actually thought about things, such as this.

My question, for you, is simply whether or not you believe that this story, (the divine conception of Augustus), is a fiction, or not. I suppose your personal view on the "nature of the world" may be relevant to your answer.

Thanks.

Jeffrey Gibson

First of all, thanks for not answering my questions.

Second, please note that you are mixing up two different issues -- the first being the question of whether or not I think that what is related in Asclepius' account of the conception of Augustus is possible/ever happened, especially if one does not accept the conclusion that Apollo exists/existed, let alone that he could sire a mortal, and the second being whether Asclepius regarded what he was up to when he recorded/recounted his theologumenon of Augustus' conception, as tantamount to what, say, Chariton was (presumably) conscious he was doing when he penned Chareas and Callirhoe.

I really wish you -- and others here -- would stop doing this.

Jeffrey

dog-on

Jeffrey, I am sorry, but I do not see the point of your questions.

I understand what you are saying, but I am not entirely sure what this has to do with whether or not a story is literally true, in the sense, that it actually happened.

If the story did not actually happen, I consider it fiction. If it is poetry, than of course, one must define the exact meanings of words and phrases which have been abused by poetic license, but if it is a straight narrative, than one must assume, that the meanings of the words used are as per their commonly understood usage.

Whatever political reasons given for creating a story about the divinity of Augustus, does in no way change the fact that such a story is fiction. So, to tie this back to the original example I supplied to SM, the birth of Christ, as described in Matthew, is a fiction.

Solitary Man

You seemed to have been arguing with yourself on this one. When did the topic shift to what happened in reality?

Amaleq13

If you truly understood what he is saying you would see the point of his questions.

IIUC, he's saying the question, itself, is inappropriate and misguided. As Solitary Man notes, you have changed the point from "what the ancients may have thought about these stories" to what Jeffrey thinks about them.

Again, IIUC, Jeffrey is suggesting that the nature of your question (fiction or true) is a fundamentally inappropriate way to address the original question.

dog-on

You mean I got caught in a JG drive-by...damn...

dog-on

I asked Jeffrey, straight up, did he believe that the stories where actually true. You are confusing that with the question I asked SM regarding what the ancients may have thought.


...

Solitary Man

I think you're playing around and getting shot down every which way.